Improving Groups -- Form Issue, Arrow Issue, Mental Issue?

[The Ri Guy]

Hello all, hoping to get some help to tighten my groups.

I bought a Black Widow PSR V a couple years back as it seemed the closest to the SAG my Father has shot for decades. We both shoot a 28" Draw, although his bow is 56# and mine is 52#, both bows are 58". We both shoot the same Dyna 97 string as well.

Because of the similarities, I didn't learn to build my own arrow and just adopted what he's shot forever which is as follows. Easton Legacy XX75 Aluminum Shaft (either 2216 or 2219 need to get home to check) + Zwickey 125 Eskimo Broadhead (160 grain) + 11/32" RPS Screw-In Adapter (40 grain) + #520 Barred Feathers from Black Widow.

He shoots tacks out to 40 yards with his bow, meanwhile my arrows are rarely a tight group. Generally 2-4 arrows out of 6 are 'tight' (4-6" group), but a couple are generally wingers off in the boonies 12"+ away from the center of the group. When I have wingers, they most commonly shoot left, generally high. Sometimes they shoot low but I am fairly confident that's a form issue with dropping my arm. Every now and then I shoot off to the right as well, but that is extremely rare and almost all of my wingers are shooting left. I will say that for reasons unknown I'm generally very accurate shooting a single judo arrow at stumps, even out to ~30 yards.

I suspect this is a form/mental issue, as he can pick up my bow and drive tacks, but I'm looking for any input that might help me solve this problem and become accurate enough to hunt with my recurve confidently.

Thanks in advance!

 

[bjfoxhoven]

Arrows may not be perfectly matched to the bow, but that isn’t the issue. If it was a set up issue, you would be missing consistently the same area. If they are way too stiff/weak that could cause some erratic flight for sure. When it clicked for me (started grouping real well and knowing when it was me flinging one) was when I became solid at the release and was only pulling with my back tension. When there is correct back tension, that sets your anchor the same and on release your hand only moves slightly. When I don’t do that I fling them left and right. It took me well over a year with a 40lb bow to get good consistency down. And it took shooting at least 3 times/week at a range and most other days in the garage just working on consistent form and release.

Unfortunately I’ve shot a little less this month and I’ve started to get a little target Panic for whatever reason.

How do u aim? Do you have access to a lighter bow? Have you shot compound before?

 

[slvrslngr]

Are you left eye dominant?

 

[oldgoat]

There's so many things that can cause that! You nailed several of them and already a couple more posted by others. My suggestion is spend a little money if that's possible and get some lessons either in person or something like Tom Clums video lessons. I really feel lessons pay for themselves eventually by preventing lost and broken arrows etc.
My second bit of advice, don't base your ability to hunt solely on how good of groups you shoot!

 

[Kevin Dill]

If I could only do 2 things:

1. I would shoot my bow every day with no concern other than getting strong and making full-draw...hold 3 seconds, and then release as my priority. No attention to accuracy. No attention to arrow flight. No attention to anything but strength, bow control, ease of draw, calm anchor at full draw. The bottom line here is to be fully in control of the bow and yourself. Keep emotion and expectation out of it completely. More strength = more bow control = more confidence = less anxiety = a better shot.

2. The release. After getting to the point of absolute strength and bow control (usually many weeks of training) I would begin switching my focus to my string grip and release....PLUS....my bow hand. To me you have to have TWO good hands doing the right things at the moment the arrow launches. Either hand doing the wrong thing will totally ruin the moment of release. If you're having problems at this point, bring in the video camera or a person (like your dad) who has a good eye for what you're doing. Work diligently at improving your bow hand stability and your string-drop/follow-through.

I always...always recommend keeping emotion and frustration completely out of practice sessions. Be analytical....calm...mindful...a tactician. You're trying to discover and learn techniques. You can't really practice 'accuracy'. You can practice techniques and improve them. Accuracy will then follow. I've found the hardest thing to do is NOT focus on what the arrow will do....only what you will do.

 

[bjfoxhoven]

Take pictures of your form from a couple angles. To the side and from behind. And take a video I slow motion of your shot. I think they will show you a couple starting points.

 

[Beendare]

Its multiple problems would be my guess; Form and arrow not matched to the bow

Both fairly typical for a beginner......

 

[The Ri Guy]

How do u aim? Do you have access to a lighter bow? Have you shot compound before?

Instinctive, I was taught to "pick a spot" and not to draw until you had it. Stare at it all the way through the draw, and then release. I have shot compound before and had no issue with accuracy or groups.

Are you left eye dominant?

Right eye dominant, shoot with both eyes open.

1. I would shoot my bow every day with no concern other than getting strong and making full-draw...hold 3 seconds, and then release as my priority.

I think this might be a major issue, I have a tendency to snap-shoot with my recurve and almost never hold my shot. I have noticed this is a big difference between how I and my father shoot.



Thank you for the input everyone, I really like Kevin's suggestions. I've also just acquired some G. Fred Asbell books that I'm sure will prove useful!

 

[slvrslngr]

You could try a clicker. It’s possible you’re short drawing and not aware of it. You might try a lighter spine arrow or put more weight up front as well.

 

[bjfoxhoven]

Instinctive, I was taught to "pick a spot" and not to draw until you had it. Stare at it all the way through the draw, and then release. I have shot compound before and had no issue with accuracy or groups.

Snap shooting and instinctive shooting is pretty darn hard to be accurate when just starting off it seems like. Need to get that form dialed in.

 

[Beendare]

OP, Sounds like you are destined to learn the hard way.

The whole form and aiming thing is really dependent on how accurate you wish to be ...and if you want to shoot longer distances.

Where point and shoot works at short 10,15, 20 yd ranges....its not as effective on longer shots. It depends entirely on what you are trying to accomplish. I know a couple guys that only take 15 yd shots in the woods....instinctive works great for that.

I know some really good shooters with a stick bow....and I shoot with a lot of them at tourneys and such.....exactly zero shoot purely instinctive aim.

Its worth considering what your goal is....

_______

 

[The Ri Guy]

Snap shooting and instinctive shooting is pretty darn hard to be accurate when just starting off it seems like. Need to get that form dialed in.

I think I'm going to do what Kevin suggested and just start getting reps in at a really close range and not focus on accuracy until my form is repeatable. That way I get some baseline of consistency somewhere in the process at least.

I know some really good shooters with a stick bow....and I shoot with a lot of them at tourneys and such.....exactly zero shoot purely instinctive aim.

Do you have any resources you can point me to that I can study up on when it comes to aiming? I know a lot of folks say to check Kifarucast (I'm a visual guy, the audio doesn't stick in my brain), 3 Rivers Archery (I tried contacted them multiple times and had a less than stellar customer service experience), Tom Clum's Online Course, etc.

I just started reading G. Fred Asbell's 'Instinctive Shooting' to get started.

 

[Boxerboxer]

I'm just getting started myself but going to see a coach (Arne Moe in my case) helped me a ton. There are 7 NTS level 4 (same coaching cert as Arne and also Tom Clum Sr.) coaches in Washington. Not sure what part of the state you're in but it's probably worth a call to the ones close enough you'd be willing to visit. You can find their contact info here: https://www.usarchery.org/coaches/find-a-coach

 

[A.Hutch]

Arne is awesome!, He helped me out a ton! I pretty well started same as you, but I really didnt have anyone around that shot a bow. I just read and looked pictures. Tried to emulate the pictures. Shot okay, good enough for close shots anyhow, but it wasnt until I started to get a disire to compete That I REALLY started paying attention to how I Draw, Anchor, .........Release. Arne worked with me posting videos on forums like this and just starting with, ok fix this first, ok now fix this, so on and so on. NO worries I'm still not a threat to anyone in a competition...long ways to go yet. But so far, my accuracy has increased a lot....
Good luck!!!



Hutch

 

[Justin.Medcalf]

If your close to Spokane I would be willing to help ya out. Not a coach but I have been shooting trad for ten years and have gone through the whole process. Let me know.

 

[Wrench]

I'm in reardan and have been at this for a long time myself, but it's tough to self diagnose sometimes. I see we have a level 4 coach in deer park too....yay. hopefully I can buy some of his time.

 

[A.Hutch]

Yeah it seems the longer we go the more our bad habits get more ingrained, heck I've been shooting a hair over 20 yrs and finally seeing the "consistent" accuracy I couldn't seem to find from pictures and stories.



Hutch

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Do yourself a favor and start paying a coach, or buy the Solid Archery Mechanics course by Tom Clum. And commit to following exactly what he teaches for at least a year. After that, if you want to try snap shooting again, feel free. Seriously. I started where you did, 5 years ago, and didn't pay for any help. It took me till about 8 months ago to get to where I had confidence. I finally KNOW I am going to shoot a good shot. Tom Clum would have cut the learning curve at lest to 1/4 of what I had.

 

[Beendare]

Let me say, I have no problem with guys shooting instinctive....especially if they are shooting short range for hunting.

I started as the OP did, shooting instinctive. It was when I missed a 140 class buck twice....that I started questioning it. How do I rectify poor accuracy....I felt that "just shooting more' is a lame answer.

I had the benefit of some good advice by some top archers. What a gap system does is give you that reference point. There are many ways, and many degrees of utilizing this [ and too much typing] to implement it.

I shoot a Gap/ instinctive type of shot. If I need to shoot fast on game, I see that gap in peripheral vision and then focus on the spot and shoot. If I want to be very accurate...or have more time on game to shoot, I draw and set my gap- studying it for a second, then focus on the spot and shoot.

This ^ gives me a reference point on short shots....and vastly improves my shooting at 25,30,35,40 and longer.

Do you have any resources you can point me to that I can study up on when it comes to aiming?.....

I think the best guy on this is Rod Jenkins. His bit on aiming in Masters of the Barebow- I think its number 3 is excellent.


These guys barely know me...but have helped me immensely. Alan Eagleton left and his Father in law Tom right are both World class shooters. Look up Alans accomplishments- super guy. I learned by shooting with them and peppering them with questions- they were great about it....most guys in Trad are.

This is at the West coast Trad championships a few years back - a 25-ish yard rat...and that's my arrow in there above Alans....[I got lucky ]

The point of the pic is this;

For this type of accuracy, instinctive aiming isn't the best.

_______

 

[The Ri Guy]

Thanks everyone, I'm just outside of Seattle but appreciate the offers from my fellow Washingtonians.

I was looking at Tom's course last night, not something I can spend the money on right now but it's on the "want list" for sure. I did not even know there were coaches or levels, but it looks like there are multiple Level 3-5 coaches within 25 minutes of me that I will definitely be reaching out to!