In-Reach/Spot-X vs PLB

dla

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Interesting read through the inReach/PLB dick measuring debate.

It's laughable if you think that all SAR operations are free. If it requires an asset SAR doesn't have, or you get transferred to another aircraft, the second you go on a helicopter ride for a private provider you better hope you have rescue insurance or you're in for a shock. Also, the lower cost of the 2 plans offered by Garmin does NOT cover air ambulance costs. You have to pay for the more expensive of their coverage, or carry your own LifeFlight insurance separately. RipCord insurance is another option.

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I just looked up Colorado SAR because I thought I read a case where a Sherrif charged for a rescue. Thought someone else might find this educational as well : https://www.coloradosarboard.org/FAQs.shtml
 

dla

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Not quiet.

The USAF is responsible for inland rescue coordination. The agency is the AF Rescue Coordination Center (RCC). If a land based PLB/ELT activation is received, they take the hammer for coordination of the rescue efforts, if its maritime based, the USCG handles the coordination.

Here are the facts...

"As the United States' inland search and rescue coordinator, the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center serves as the single agency responsible for coordinating on-land federal SAR activities in the 48 contiguous United States, Mexico and Canada.

The AFRCC operates 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The center directly ties in to the Federal Aviation Administration's alerting system and the U.S. Mission Control Center. In addition to the Search and Rescue Satellite Aided Tracking information, the AFRCC computer system contains resource files that list federal and state organizations, which can conduct or assist in SAR efforts throughout North America."

True in a non-civil SAR - like a lost aircraft. Not true for a civil SAR - like where a civilian breaks a leg in the backcountry and signals with a PLB.
Again, in most States SAR is managed by the Sherrif of the county where the SAR occurs.
I haven't checked all 50 states, so SAR on the Appalachian Trail may be different.
 
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Vandy321

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Lol. Ok buddy.

I spelled it out for you in clear English, with an actual link from the RCC itself detailing their mission. But sure, whatever you say.
 
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Vandy321

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A PLB and an ELT both go to the RCC.

If your wife gets scared because she knows have a history of getting lost in the woods and calls the local SAR, sure the sherriff may coordinate. If you break your leg and activate your actual PLB, guess what, it goes to the RCC.
 

dla

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Lol. Ok buddy.

I spelled it out for you in clear English, with an actual link from the RCC itself detailing their mission. But sure, whatever you say.
Well - you're wrong. And dispensing your "knowledge" like it is truth. Welcome to the real world.
 

dla

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A PLB and an ELT both go to the RCC.

If your wife gets scared because she knows have a history of getting lost in the woods and calls the local SAR, sure the sherriff may coordinate. If you break your leg and activate your actual PLB, guess what, it goes to the RCC.
Yep and the RCC hands over the information to the local sherrif. The Sherrif then coordinates and manages the SAR.
 
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Vandy321

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https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aip_html/part1_gen_section_3.6.html

National Search and Rescue Plan
  1. By federal interagency agreement, the National Search and Rescue Plan provides for the effective use of all available facilities in all types of SAR missions. These facilities include aircraft, vessels, pararescue and ground rescue teams, and emergency radio fixing. Under the Plan, the U.S. Coast Guard is responsible for the coordination of SAR in the Maritime Region, and the U.S. Air Force is responsible in the Inland Region. To carry out these responsibilities, the Coast Guard and the Air Force have established RCCs to direct SAR activities within their regions. For aircraft emergencies, distress and urgency information normally will be passed to the appropriate RCC through an air route traffic control center (ARTCC) or flight service station (FSS).
 
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This is offered in the spirit of knowledge, and not argumentative.

https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/rcc.html

For those interested in PLBs and what happens down the chain of command, read the above link. It's relatively short and easy. Here are the highlights boiled down to layman terms:

When you activate a PLB or ELT registered to NOAA:

USMCC (United States Mission Control Center) receives Cospas-Sarsat alerts and directs them to the appropriate RCC (Rescue Coordination Center).

RCCs are operated by either the US Air Force or Coast Guard. The RCC coordinates the rescue response, but does not necessarily perform the actual SAR.

Actual inland SAR ops are usually carried out by state and local authorities, including state police, Civil Air Patrol, or other entity.

The US Air Force coordinates all inland SAR activities in the lower 48 states.

The US Coast Guard coordinates AND typically conducts all maritime SAR ops.

Alaska is different. The AK Air National Guard operates the RCC. It also coordinates and conducts actual SAR ops, along with AK State Troopers and perhaps local borough SAR operations.

_____________________________________________________

And a couple personal observations: I would expect the local sheriff to be part of most rural SAR efforts, as they are basically always ready to respond to local problems. I wouldn't expect them to assume command and control, unless they have the resources to conduct air search and rescue (think LA County).

My earlier point....which somehow got misconstrued....is that all these rescue efforts and entities are funded by the government(s), tax dollars, grants or volunteer funding. We don't get a bill from the troopers, Coast Guard, sheriff, NOAA, or Santa Claus. We have FREE access to the entire system, and it's a great benefit....perk if you will....for those of us who choose it. But it's all about SAR, and not about back-and-forth communications with your family.

If your preference is a device which allows communications, a Sarsat-Cospas device (PLB) may not be your best choice. You're likely better served with a pay-for-use device. You must pay a subscription fee and your SOS (if activated) is handled by a for-profit company (likely GEOS) which then follows its own protocols for who to notify in event of an emergency signal.
 
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dla

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"The US Air Force coordinates all inland SAR activities in the lower 48 states. "

Nope. Sorry. Perhaps they are using a different definition of "coordinates".

This is growing wearisome. Do us all a favor - Google "search and rescue" in your State and see how your State handles it*. Here in Oregon and Idaho the COORDINATION is handled by the appropriate County Sheriff. As I said earlier, there is a difference between civil and non-civil SAR and the Air Force coordinates non-civil SAR, the County Sheriff coordinates civil-SAR.

The reason I'm harping about this is three-fold: First - the information presented on this forum should be true to the best of our ability. Second - folks should understand reality - especially that rescue is serious business, huge effort, is not perfect**, and is mostly conducted by volunteers under the command of the County Sheriff. Third - Nobody in the SAR business in US cares how the emergency was signaled. They don't behave differently for InReach vs SPOT vs COSPAS-SARSAT***.

Ultimately SAR works. COSPAS-SARSAT boasts about 52000 "saves", SPOT boasts about 6200 "saves", and I'm sure InReach (the newcomer) can boast a bunch as well.

In my ideal world, everyone would be carrying a satellite-based form of communication that can convey WGS84 location coordinates. Today we have Sat Phones & GPS, COSPAS-SARSAT PLB, SPOT Messenger, two-way text communicators like Garmin/InReach (and SPOT) products and Cell-phone enabler Bivy Stick.

Here in Oregon, most of the SAR activities involve folks who don't leave trip plans and have no means of communicating their location.

We will spend $2000 for a pair of Swarovski Binos, seems like we should be able to spring for an emergency communication device.

* Not all County Sheriff SARs are the same. Some have money and equipment, some don't. It is a good idea to check out the SAR available in the area you intend to be playing in so you know what to expect. Rescue time can vary a lot depending on what you're up to.
** people die awaiting rescue all the time
*** Yes there can be some thrashing as the "signal receivers" (GEOS & AFRCC) work to filter out false alarms,
but this is usually resolved in 20 minutes and then the appropriate SAR resources are contacted and given full information. And it is vitally important folks do the device registration.
 
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Directly from the US Government/NOAA website regarding the response to PLB/ELT/EPIRB-signaled emergencies:

"The Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (AFRCC) at Tyndall AFB, FL coordinates all inland SAR activities in the continental U.S."

"coordinates all" is particularly convincing. No qualifiers. No modifiers. No interpretation. I suggest anyone who wants to argue the accuracy or truthfulness of that statement needs to spend some time arguing with the federal government's choice of verbiage. Maybe the government just doesn't understand who is in charge initially, and needs to be corrected. Do that.

In the end, a sheriff may well end up coordinating the rescue effort after a PLB activates and after the sheriff is made aware. But they're coordinating nothing until the RCC makes them aware of a distress beacon and hands the response to them. In that event we're likely talking about initial coordination (RCC) vs later or eventual coordination (sheriff, troopers, etc) depending upon the placement of authority which might be statutory.
 

dla

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Sigh, I feel like I'm talking to my dog.....

"The Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (AFRCC) at Tyndall AFB, FL coordinates all inland SAR activities in the continental U.S."

Do you realize how stupid that statement is given that neither SPOT or InReach use the AFRCC?

And you obviously still haven't Google your States SAR.
 

dla

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Stumbled across this, incident summaries from all GEOS / IERCC responses
https://www.geosresponse.com/sar-flash-reports.html
I just read through a couple months of 2018 and it would appear that InReach has more incidents than SPOT. I suppose that could mean:
  1. InReach owners are more accident prone than SPOT owners.
  2. InReach is now carried by more outdoorsy-types than SPOT.
I also found a case of a young lady getting munched by a Grizzly in May 2018.

Thanks for posting this!
 

dla

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dla

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Oregon & Idaho
Was In your situation too, with Onyx on phone, ACR signal device.
Buying SAT phone last year was best for me, piece of mind for an old guy in the backcountry...& for my wife at home.
I just use ppd minutes-plan during hunt season mainly.

I'm sure you scored points with your wife - my wife is adamant that I always have SPOT or InReach.
My son will leave his trip plan with me, but I sure miss the days when he carried SPOT and I would get an OK/Checkin message with coordinates so I could pull it up on a map.
Curious: Do you carry a GPS with you too? Or do the phones have builtin GPS capability?
 
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