Interesting article on caliber, ballistic gel and fps

willfrye027

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Super interesting. When I get around to working up a custom load for my 30-06 I would love to incorporate some long range ballistic gel testing. Especially after I had incredibly poor expansion on a 330 yard shot at a mule deer this fall. Luckily the shot was on the money but it definitely shakes my confidence with longer shots to see bullets do this:154E0EA0-D202-4FCC-83CA-DA2702E06F47.jpeg
 

2five7

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Looks like a Barnes. If so, I'm guessing impact was velocity was around 2000-2200. If you are going to shoot monos, push them as fast as possible and keep that impact velocity up around 2400+
 

willfrye027

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It’s a federal power shock copper 150gr in 30-06. Should be pushing 1900fps at that range. Needless to say I’m not shooting them anymore...a bullet that can’t shoot 300 yards it pretty useless! I am gonna shoot lead when I can and Hornady superformance for nonlead. Would also like to check out the new Barnes extended range copper. Definitely an eye opener...
 

N2TRKYS

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It’s a federal power shock copper 150gr in 30-06. Should be pushing 1900fps at that range. Needless to say I’m not shooting them anymore...a bullet that can’t shoot 300 yards it pretty useless! I am gonna shoot lead when I can and Hornady superformance for nonlead. Would also like to check out the new Barnes extended range copper. Definitely an eye opener...
Seems kinda heavy for monos. I'd give the 130s a try.
 

elkguide

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Like their conclusion..... shoot whatever weapon that you are comfortable with and shoot it well!
 

Ndbowhunter

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Nathan foster out of New Zealand is a good reference for bullet performance.

another way would be to cull some animals with low velocity loads and see the results first hand.
 

tyeager2964

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Wound channel has a direct correlation between impact velocity and bullet construction.

A solid copper bullet regardless of weight at 1900 fps impact is likely going to have a hard time expanding unless driven through bone. Most recommend impact velocity around 2200.

If you choose a tough bullet you must push it hard enough to impact above or at the minimum velocity recommended by the manufacturer.

Staying above 2000 fps could be a good rule of thumb but almost everything I have shot is inside 200 yards so my first hand experience is lacking in the long range slower velocity impacts.

I will defer to those with much more experience.
 
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Sled

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For those that didn't read the article, towards the end they stated that live tissue like humans and animals, while elastic, the breaking point is 2200 ft per second where it cannot expand and contract only rip. This results in a larger wound channel. So, a 6.5cm pushing 2400fps should create a larger permanent wound channel than a slow 1800 fps .308 win.
 

jmden

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If shooting longer range is the plan, bullet construction of many typical bullets, many of which are likely designed by big companies trying to make a bullet for 'average' conditions with hits, say, within 200 yds or so--these typical offerings may not be appropriate for longer ranges.

In the long range hunting world, the concept of pushing a very heavy for caliber bullet at reasonably high velocities, is often practiced. The rifle in the picture to the left pushes a .338, 300g Berger EH at 3030fps. Berger bullets are probably the most used 'long range' bullet out there. I have no issue shoulder knuckling an elk, and have, at well under 100 yds with this setup as well. The heavy for caliber bullet will still then do the job at short range. But at longer ranges the appropriate Berger will do the job as well. There's always limits either way and variables to consider in bullet selection and what shot should or should not be taken given those variables. NO bullet does everything right and NO single bullet will always work in every situation.

Many folks have taken game with incredible quick kills at long ranges at velocities way below 2200fps with Bergers....
 

406Smith

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The article is in the context of terminal ballistics on people, focuses on handgun calibers, and explicitly states velocity is not the key (numerous times)....and yet here we are throwing out velocity thresholds.

The bullet geometry, material properties (i.e. young’s modulus, moment of inertia, cross-sectional area, etc.) and the forces imposed (found from the work-energy relationship) will dictate material strain. Speaking only in terms of generic velocity really oversimplifies what’s going on and doesn’t take a look at the whole picture. Velocity in-and-of itself does not cause material strain.
 

SteveCNJ

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The article is in the context of terminal ballistics on people, focuses on handgun calibers, and explicitly states velocity is not the key (numerous times)....and yet here we are throwing out velocity thresholds.

The bullet geometry, material properties (i.e. young’s modulus, moment of inertia, cross-sectional area, etc.) and the forces imposed (found from the work-energy relationship) will dictate material strain. Speaking only in terms of generic velocity really oversimplifies what’s going on and doesn’t take a look at the whole picture. Velocity in-and-of itself does not cause material strain.
There is a direct comparison of handgun velocities compared to rifle velocities and the related damage correlated to the higher velocity ~2200

This temporary wound cavity as we expand and recover is different when projectiles hit at greater than 2200 feet per second. At that point, it appears we have surpassed the elasticity capability of human tissue and that temporary wound cavity begins tearing at its limits and margins and becomes a permanent wound cavity, which also is a conclusion why people who are center-punched with rifle projectiles typically succumb much quicker than people who are hit with handgun projectiles. The byproduct of that also seems that when when a rifle projectile at those velocities bypasses an organ, you will still have organic damage whereas a handgun projectile needs to directly hit a vital organ to do organic damage. Very big difference in the outcome most of the time

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406Smith

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There is a direct comparison of handgun velocities compared to rifle velocities and the related damage correlated to the higher velocity ~2200

This temporary wound cavity as we expand and recover is different when projectiles hit at greater than 2200 feet per second. At that point, it appears we have surpassed the elasticity capability of human tissue and that temporary wound cavity begins tearing at its limits and margins and becomes a permanent wound cavity, which also is a conclusion why people who are center-punched with rifle projectiles typically succumb much quicker than people who are hit with handgun projectiles. The byproduct of that also seems that when when a rifle projectile at those velocities bypasses an organ, you will still have organic damage whereas a handgun projectile needs to directly hit a vital organ to do organic damage. Very big difference in the outcome most of the time

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You're missing the point...well, points:
  1. Go look at any handgun bullet and compare it to modern rifle bullets. Notice any difference? Geometries are substantially different.
  2. Compare the skin thickness & body thickness of any big game animal to a human...pretty big difference.
  3. Notice how ballistic gel is uniform. This is a good testing method for comparative purposes (especially for impacts on humans), but not so great for animals. Ever hit a shoulder or a rib on an animal? Notice the substantial difference in wound cavity?
  4. Not nearly least, VELOCITY DOES NOT EXPAND MATERIAL. We're spinning at about 1,000 miles per hour on the earth and bullets aren't just expanding on the shelves. The velocity is relevant in the context of kinetic energy being converted to work (which is force over distance), and the subsequent forces applied to the bullet. The bullet characteristics will then interplay with the forces and we will see material deformation (i.e. stress-strain relationship).
Again, it's just not appropriate to extrapolate from an article about terminal ballistics on humans using hanguns to reach a conclusion regarding impact velocities on big game animals using rifle cartridges. I get it that we are all looking for that one thing to simplify and better understand what is going on. But the reality is that terminal ballistics is a complex science. You are not doing yourself any favors (or the animal you're shooting) by ignoring very significant factors.
 
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Sled

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406,

it's a pretty generalized article that people can take out of what they want. you can get as specific with it as you'd like but it doesn't change what the writer wrote. that 30 cal magnum that i'm sure you like so much doesn't produce much KE when you throw that projectile toward the animal by hand, does it? with velocity and weight (mass) comes Kinetic energy. it really is a big part of the equation. the author generalized it but without velocity you have no KE. objects always have weight or mass here on earth. it's true that the earth is always rotating but very unfair to assume due to that rotation the projectile has a velocity when it's sitting on the shelf here on earth.

i get what you're trying to say but to detract from the statement the author said is a bit of a stretch. all things being equal, the 180gr of mass pushed at 1100 fps vs the one pushed at 2200 fps....which one would you prefer to use on game animals? which one would do more damage to meat?


 

406Smith

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406,

it's a pretty generalized article that people can take out of what they want. you can get as specific with it as you'd like but it doesn't change what the writer wrote. that 30 cal magnum that i'm sure you like so much doesn't produce much KE when you throw that projectile toward the animal by hand, does it? with velocity and weight (mass) comes Kinetic energy. it really is a big part of the equation. the author generalized it but without velocity you have no KE. objects always have weight or mass here on earth. it's true that the earth is always rotating but very unfair to assume due to that rotation the projectile has a velocity when it's sitting on the shelf here on earth.

i get what you're trying to say but to detract from the statement the author said is a bit of a stretch. all things being equal, the 180gr of mass pushed at 1100 fps vs the one pushed at 2200 fps....which one would you prefer to use on game animals? which one would do more damage to meat?


I don’t own a 30 cal magnum and probably never will....good to see your biases continuing to shine through. I don’t live and die by KE because KE does not kill animals. Again terminal ballistics is a complex science and you need to have a good grasp on math, physics, mechanics of materials, anatomy, etc. to peck at the edges.

And by the way, yes projectiles have Velocity sitting on the shelf....good lord.
 
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Sled

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found this on the other forum. and yes, most folks that talk KE to no end are large caliber magnum guys so i guess i look for bias where i see all the other symptoms.
 
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Sled

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And by the way, yes projectiles have Velocity sitting on the shelf....good lord.
can you tell me what velocity that projectile on the shelf is going compared to the shelf it's sitting on? how about compared to the elk bedded down on the mountain side at the same longitude?
 

406Smith

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can you tell me what velocity that projectile on the shelf is going compared to the shelf it's sitting on? how about compared to the elk bedded down on the mountain side at the same longitude?
You’re on the right track, kinda. But you’re conflating ideas. You need acceleration, not velocity for the needed forces to expand material. That is seen in the KE to Work relationship.
 
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