Jim Shockey on Border Closure

tdot

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I wont comment on that article specifically, but I will support a couple of his claims. I personally looked at buying a couple of different guide territories 6 years ago or so, here in BC, just before Grizzly hunting was closed. Once I ran the numbers, the potential returns were laughable. Without the Grizzly hunt, it would've been almost impossible to make a living. The other is that $100,000 here really isn't alot, first you lose roughly 50%-55% to income tax, then there are other forms of taxation for a total tax bill that can approach 60%+. Secondly our dollar buys only 2/3 of what a US Dollar does, so there goes a bunch more. I've got friends who are married with 2 people earning 6 figures and they are not exactly killing it. Comfortable, but certainly not heading for early retirement.
 

KBC

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Most of us west of Ontario typically vote in a manner that Ontario and Quebec do not. Sadly the west is not represented equally in parliament so the Lieberals have been declared winners before all the votes out west are counted.
There is a growing western separation movement though so maybe there’s hope.
I was going to book a stone sheep hunt in late 2019 for the next avaliable which would have been 2022 or so. Glad I missed the boat.
I feel for everyone all the way around but there is plenty of US business that have closed or are close to bankrupcy due to covid. Is it moral right to keep a clients money and not supply a hunt when that maybe the last guided hunt they can afford to go on. The Outfitters in Canada don't have an exclusive claim to covid screwing up their business. Maybe they should look long and hard at their elected officials on how covid was handled and respond how they feel appropiate with their votes.
 

npm352

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Jim Shockey: "We need your money more than you do. We are special, you are not. The COVID gutpunch got us worse than you so we are keeping your money. If you don't like it you are trash. Ready your contracts you deadbeats."

If that is the attitude of most Canadian outfitters then they deserve to go out of business and be replaced by others.
 

alaska_bou

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"10% profit." What a lie. I can't speak for every outfitter but I know several in BC that spend less than 40% of their hunt cost on overhead. Some outfitters are using covid as an excuse to keep deposits and rebook new clients at higher pricing.
 

Hookhunter75

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That article is a joke. All of the hunters that purchased hunts kept those outfitters from eating Ramen for dinner and going belly up.

A healthy hunter young or old is not going to buy trip insurance. A global pandemic is an outlying factor no one should reserve getting criticism for for not looking in to getting trip insurance. Unforeseen death, illness, or injury those would be issues you couldn’t defend if you did not purchase the insurance.

There is a moral obligation for these outfitters to maintain the contract we originally signed. Hundreds of thousands of US outdoorsman did not make charitable donations to sustain a business and bypass the service they paid for.

Sorry Shockey but it is as simple as rolling the hunt over. Every damn hunter that has put money down on a Canadian hunt deserves their hunt rolled over until that border opens up and we are back in business. I guarantee you it’s in the best interest long term if that outfitter intends to stay in business.

If outfitters start turning away their “covid closure clients” I can guarantee the pandemic will be far from what crushes their business.

I respect my outfitter and what he has gone through but I expect mutual respect from my outfitter for what I have gone through. Every man has their own story on how they got to the hunt they scheduled. For some that money may not have come as easily as it did for others when paying to book a “dream hunt”. Unimpressed by the roll over surcharge but I’ll pay it. Nothing in life is free. I just expect in the end when this is all sorted out that the outfitter holds up his end of the deal and I get to hunt. Kill or no kill it doesn’t matter. I paid for an opportunity and that’s all I want.
 

roadrunner

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The article is a hypothetical case. Maybe Shockey knows a specific outfitter the article is based on, but it's likely an average scenario that has no actual and definitive substance.

Shockey's message for full refunds is don't hold your breath and here's why.

The instant gratification attitude we have adopted as an American society is stifling...
 

5MilesBack

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Shockey's message for full refunds is don't hold your breath and here's why.
I don't think most want a refund.........they want what they paid for, and would be perfectly fine with getting that. It's the attitude or stance of "no refunds" AND "no carryovers" that's the problem. Down here south of the border we have a term for that......it's called fraud.

It would be like paying for a vehicle from a dealer out of state, and then before you took possession the vehicle got stolen or totaled. Then the dealer calls and tells you "tough ****", oh and "I had no insurance so you're out of luck........no vehicle, and no refund".
 

tntrker

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Upstate SC
My question or wanting some advice is: I've already paid my "nonrefundable but transferable deposit 2 years ago. The remaining amount of $5200, again nonrefundable, is due in 2 weeks for a hunt in Oct. I'll be vaccinated, as I'm sure that will be a minimum requirement, but do we gamble knowing this is the only year we are able to do the hunt? We are already "booked" for the next 4 years stateside and do not care to push this hunt back until after that....
 

TSAMP

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My question or wanting some advice is: I've already paid my "nonrefundable but transferable deposit 2 years ago. The remaining amount of $5200, again nonrefundable, is due in 2 weeks for a hunt in Oct. I'll be vaccinated, as I'm sure that will be a minimum requirement, but do we gamble knowing this is the only year we are able to do the hunt? We are already "booked" for the next 4 years stateside and do not care to push this hunt back until after that....
Id have a very candid conversation with your outfitter. They should understand why you would be hesitant to send final payment with the current state of things. If they insist for you to follow the preset schedule id reccomend you get trip insurance. It's not too late for it. Otherwise I'd say I'll pay when I arrive. Pm if you want contact info for a company.
 

204guy

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I don't have time to read the full article , so if covered I apologize. One thing I never see mentioned about these poor downtrodden outfitters is that they also had much, much lower overhead costs last year. No food, no travel, no gas, no transportation maintenance, no flights, no staff etc, etc. I understand they have to pay for concessions but this is out and out greed because they know the US government isn't going to back some hunters over an international contract dispute.
 

Billy Goat

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I don't have time to read the full article , so if covered I apologize. One thing I never see mentioned about these poor downtrodden outfitters is that they also had much, much lower overhead costs last year. No food, no travel, no gas, no transportation maintenance, no flights, no staff etc, etc. I understand they have to pay for concessions but this is out and out greed because they know the US government isn't going to back some hunters over an international contract dispute.


According to the article you were still fully staffed when the border was closed. Maybe if you were a fishing outfit.


I ain't got a dog in the fight, there's a few interesting points, mainly the quotas, however it seems that should be altered. If the hunts didn't take place, then quotas weren't met and there should be a increase in them, tho likely small.

Most small businesses took a pretty big hit. I can appreciate that he is trying to give an explanation of things from a different side, which is often an unseen side. Just seems pretty defensive to me, especially when it's coming from someone who is always posting on social stuff with seemingly grandiose things.
 

roadrunner

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I don't think most want a refund.........they want what they paid for, and would be perfectly fine with getting that. It's the attitude or stance of "no refunds" AND "no carryovers" that's the problem. Down here south of the border we have a term for that......it's called fraud.

It would be like paying for a vehicle from a dealer out of state, and then before you took possession the vehicle got stolen or totaled. Then the dealer calls and tells you "tough ****", oh and "I had no insurance so you're out of luck........no vehicle, and no refund".

Usually, fraud is purposefully misleading with intent to gain. A guy who said he was an outfitter and then turned out to be anything but - that is fraud.

Part of the fees paid were to secure services that may have required deposits as well. The cost of doing business always falls onto the customer. Everything. The only way a business can upfront the cost and then get reimbursed later is to have dissolvable capital by being in business for a while, which is where Shockey's article gets a little too fictional - an outfitter being able to earn a living wage and some savings usually has a business in place with that has some dissolvable capital to invest in upcoming costs before the client pays.

Most businesses spend income before it is truly income. Most service providers invoice the customer to be paid at a later date.

To say the outfitter spent income he didn't have is untrue. The money spent was on behalf of the hunter to secure necessary services, whatever they were, for the hunter instead of the hunter having to do it themselves.

Not saying it's right for an outfitter to not reschedule, just saying this situation some people are in is a real thing and it was never before frowned upon by hunters how outfitters ran their business until now.

Several businesses in NM closed this past year because of similar things, the only difference is the customer wasn't left out in the rain holding an empty bag. My guess is the outfitting industries will change their practice and start to make hunters do a little more leg work as far as reservations, bookings, charters, etc.

Those services are what is causing this whole debacle, according to the article...
 

lab-roamer

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Feb 27, 2012
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Things might cost more in Canada...but at least they have "free" health care.
Im not sure I could put down a deposit on a hunt or vacation anymore. Wonder what virus will hit us in 2022 being its another election year.
 

tdot

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I don't think most want a refund.........they want what they paid for, and would be perfectly fine with getting that. It's the attitude or stance of "no refunds" AND "no carryovers" that's the problem. Down here south of the border we have a term for that......it's called fraud.

It would be like paying for a vehicle from a dealer out of state, and then before you took possession the vehicle got stolen or totaled. Then the dealer calls and tells you "tough ****", oh and "I had no insurance so you're out of luck........no vehicle, and no refund".
It's not fraud. That's going a touch far.
 

NWONhunter

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The only thing I want is to be able to get my bow from an American company and have it shipped without having to pay extra
 

tdot

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If people want to be dicks about this issue. The outfitter was there, ready to provide the service. It was the customer who didn't show up. The outiftter doesn't control the border. It is out of their control. No different then if a snow storm prevented the flight from leaving the ground. I know of several guides that went North to work for free, on the slim chance the Border would open in August or September.

I lost a ton of money as I wasn't able to make it down to the States for work. I don't have any American business sending money my way, nor am I being compensated. It's called life. I don't see a safety net. Sh1t happens. I'm living in the Socialist country, sounds like you guys want a Socialist safety net after all.

Personally I gave all of my clients deposits back, it almost bankrupted my business in Apr 2020. It was my business decision to make, but not one that I would simply assume everyone else can or would make. To simply assume that the other person should is brutal. I was in an industry that subsequentky grew due to the restrictions, so I was lucky. But I'm not seeing the fairy tale ending for the Outfitters. They received deposits, true, but they didn't exactly have a normal, profitable year. Best case scenario they broke even, or only lost a little. Now you expect them to take another hit the following year by working for free again?

I'd value any guide or outiftter who was able to meet in the middle and come to any sort of arrangement that was mutually beneficial. But I'd not fault those who weren't able to.

Covid sucks. Lockdowns sucked. Border closures suck. But its not the Canadian Outfitters fault that American hunts were missed.

It's unfortunate that Shockey's article was so brutally tone deaf. The message was poorly presented.
 

tdot

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Taking people's money, and then having no interest in refunding or rescheduling their hunts? Just because the intent wasn't there when they took the money doesn't mean that it's not fraud now.
In Contract Law in our country, the client could actually be sued for not completing the contract. Would it be successful? Given the circumstances, highly unlikely. But as I said in my previous post. The Outfitters and Guides were there to provide a service. The client didnt show up. That is Breach of contract.

This is not fraud. It's a shitty situation for both parties. American laws stop at the 49th parallel. Maybe it's fraud in your country, but not up here.
 

Avalanche123

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If people want to be dicks about this issue. The outfitter was there, ready to provide the service. It was the customer who didn't show up. The outiftter doesn't control the border. It is out of their control. No different then if a snow storm prevented the flight from leaving the ground. I know of several guides that went North to work for free, on the slim chance the Border would open in August or September.

I lost a ton of money as I wasn't able to make it down to the States for work. I don't have any American business sending money my way, nor am I being compensated. It's called life. I don't see a safety net. Sh1t happens. I'm living in the Socialist country, sounds like you guys want a Socialist safety net after all.

Personally I gave all of my clients deposits back, it almost bankrupted my business in Apr 2020. It was my business decision to make, but not one that I would simply assume everyone else can or would make. To simply assume that the other person should is brutal. I was in an industry that subsequentky grew due to the restrictions, so I was lucky. But I'm not seeing the fairy tale ending for the Outfitters. They received deposits, true, but they didn't exactly have a normal, profitable year. Best case scenario they broke even, or only lost a little. Now you expect them to take another hit the following year by working for free again?

I'd value any guide or outiftter who was able to meet in the middle and come to any sort of arrangement that was mutually beneficial. But I'd not fault those who weren't able to.

Covid sucks. Lockdowns sucked. Border closures suck. But its not the Canadian Outfitters fault that American hunts were missed.

It's unfortunate that Shockey's article was so brutally tone deaf. The message was poorly presented.
I could not agree more.
 
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