Jim Shockey on Border Closure

[mproberts]

My guess is the outfitting industries will change their practice and start to make hunters do a little more leg work as far as reservations, bookings, charters, etc.

Those services are what is causing this whole debacle, according to the article...

My wife ran into a very similar issue, she had booked a dream trip through a US company that secured everything for her overseas. She was able to get the flight she booked herself refunded, but she is still fighting to get her money back from the US company that booked the rest of the trip. The company's argument is the terms of things they booked didn't allow for refunds or rollovers, her argument is that she didn't agree to those terms or book those reservations. She only contracted through the US company, which had no such terms. The issue is 16 months old now with no resolution in sight. She has tried to take them to claims court with no luck.

Good luck to anyone out there with a hunt booked this fall, and my advice to tntrker would be get anything the outfitter promises in writing if it isn't in the original contract before you send them another dime.

 

[WCB]

In Contract Law in our country, the client could actually be sued for not completing the contract. Would it be successful? Given the circumstances, highly unlikely. But as I said in my previous post. The Outfitters and Guides were there to provide a service. The client didnt show up. That is Breach of contract.

This is not fraud. It's a shitty situation for both parties. American laws stop at the 49th parallel. Maybe it's fraud in your country, but not up here.

Wouldn't it be fraud if the deposits are transferable or able to be rolled over and the outfitter did not provide that option? Or if they regularly made that accommodation?

A lot of the stories I have heard are guys have contacted the Outfitter to reschedule or whatever and the Outfitters are telling them to wait because they "thought" or "think" the border would be open by the time their hunt came up. OR Outfitters are dragging their feet contacting clients back.

I hate litigation as much as anyone but I don't think it is all as cut and dry as the Outfitters have no responsibility to the clients in A LOT of scenarios. Of course a lot of it depends on the exact wording of the Outfitter agreement.

 

[roadrunner]

Taking people's money, and then having no interest in refunding or rescheduling their hunts? Just because the intent wasn't there when they took the money doesn't mean that it's not fraud now.

Except that money was used for its intended purpose. The deposit is to get the ball rolling for a hunt. If the amount would have been paid in full and only a portion of it used, then yes, there would be an obligation to refund what wasn't used.

Think the article points that out even.

Yes, I would be livid if I were in this situation. Not at the outfitter, but at the Canadian government.

 

[bozeman]

Note to self- never hunt in Canada…….

 

[cuerro viejo]

Higher end goods have higher costs associated with them, nature of living up to higher expectations. I wouldn’t be shocked with 10% or less. Most companies don’t even net 10%. Net isnt EBITDA.

kind of disheartening watching people projecting at what others are perceived to make. I feel for the outfitters that are being unfairly targeted by bad governance.

 

[tdot]

Wouldn't it be fraud if the deposits are transferable or able to be rolled over and the outfitter did not provide that option? Or if they regularly made that accommodation?

A lot of the stories I have heard are guys have contacted the Outfitter to reschedule or whatever and the Outfitters are telling them to wait because they "thought" or "think" the border would be open by the time their hunt came up. OR Outfitters are dragging their feet contacting clients back.

I hate litigation as much as anyone but I don't think it is all as cut and dry as the Outfitters have no responsibility to the clients in A LOT of scenarios. Of course a lot of it depends on the exact wording of the Outfitter agreement.

You're right, alot of the scenarios will come down to the individual wording of contracts. Timing of hunts, amount and timing of deposits, etc. should also affect things. Everyone will read Shockey's article and these subsequent posts and interpret them based on their own assumptions and the stories they've heard. I know I have.

At the end of the day, it isn't 100% on the Outfitters to make this right, nor is it 100% on the client to simply suck it up. Every situation will be different, and there won't be a single answer that satisfies everyone.

 

[onetohunt]

I had paid my deposit with very clear understanding that it is not refundable. At first I was a little upset with this but then thought about a little and decided that the Outfitter needed a way to insure that I was going to show up for the hunt and not back out x amount of days down the road. I really don't know what it is going to cost that much extra on the Outfitters part being that they have been in business for several years and the outpost and tents have been all been paid for years in advance of my hunt. The food will not be bought that early and the guides will not be paid until the report for work so it left me a little perplexed. At any rate, the deposit is not coming back no matter what and I signed off on that. Now the rest of my hunt is due (moose hunt in Manitoba for the last of Sept and first part of Oct.) and I really didn't want to pay the rest of the hunt just yet!!

Got a letter from the outfitter and he said that he did not want the rest of the payment until the border was officially opened up!! Yeah it made my day. The next question is for myself, if it does get opened up the 21st of July do I go ahead and send the rest? We all know that there will be another spike as soon as August rolls around, because that is the saving grace of the two governments involved!! I am hoping that by then, if the border does open, things have or will make a little more sense on what is or may happen with the virus????? At any rate, I do believe some of the ownest needs to fall upon the Outfitter as well because of the reasons I mentioned above!!

 

[5MilesBack]

Except that money was used for its intended purpose. The deposit is to get the ball rolling for a hunt.

The border closed in March 2020. At that point their should have been skepticism for both outfitters and clients as to what would or could happen for later hunts as well as Spring hunts.......and also a whole lot of communication between the outfitters and clients.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's a pretty big lesson here for both sides.......have insurance that covers the unknowns. I always buy travel insurance when we have a big trip planned and paid for, because you just never know. Could be sickness, airline strike, weather, whatever.....nobody could have foreseen Covid, but that was also a big unknown and reason for insurance. I wonder if anyone tried to get insurance after the border was closed.......just in case.

I would think that every outfitter would have it, given the nature and frequency of forest fires that are so common anymore north or south of the border. I wonder how the outfitters in Northern Colorado handled this last year when the fires wiped out so much of their hunting grounds and units and forests and roads were closed for the season. I wonder if they're rolling their client's hunts over to future years or telling them tough luck????

 

[roadrunner]

The border closed in March 2020. At that point their should have been skepticism for both outfitters and clients as to what would or could happen for later hunts as well as Spring hunts.......and also a whole lot of communication between the outfitters and clients.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's a pretty big lesson here for both sides.......have insurance that covers the unknowns. I always buy travel insurance when we have a big trip planned and paid for, because you just never know. Could be sickness, airline strike, weather, whatever.....nobody could have foreseen Covid, but that was also a big unknown. I wonder if anyone tried to get insurance after the border was closed.......just in case.

I would think that every outfitter would have it, given the nature and frequency of forest fires that are so common anymore north or south of the border. I wonder how the outfitters in Northern Colorado handled this last year when the fires wiped out so much of their hunting grounds and units and forests and roads were closed for the season. I wonder if they're rolling their client's hunts over to future years or telling them tough luck????

Rolling hunts over is a normal thing due to some unforeseen event but it's usually only a handful. The difference here is that everyone is trying to do that, so the outfitter will be one year at half revenue from last year and then this year or the proceeding year after at half revenue again.

The right answer is for the Canadian government to man up, but that would come at the expense of the Canadian citizens which isn't right either.

 

[5MilesBack]

Rolling hunts over is a normal thing due to some unforeseen event but it's usually only a handful. The difference here is that everyone is trying to do that, so the outfitter will be one year at half revenue from last year and then this year or the proceeding year after at half revenue again.

Hence the insurance for the outfitters.......LOL.

But ya......when governments handcuff their citizens and their businesses, they really should make it right. But the preferable choice would have been to just let everyone make their own decisions based on the information available and leave the border open (at least to those that are legal).

 

[Where's Bruce?]

If you paid for a hunt you cannot reschedule then simply submit a chargeback request with your credit card issuer. They will immediately credit you any funds paid for a hunt you were unable to take due to Covid-19. Sucks but that's all you can do.

 

[roadrunner]

But the preferable choice would have been to just let everyone make their own decisions based on the information available and leave the border open (at least to those that are legal).

That would make too much sense!!

 

[alaska_bou]

Most travel insurance companies don't cover pandemic related issues.

 

[j33]

If you paid for a hunt you cannot reschedule then simply submit a chargeback request with your credit card issuer. They will immediately credit you any funds paid for a hunt you were unable to take due to Covid-19. Sucks but that's all you can do.

Likely a 120 day limit on credit card stuff like that?

 

[TheGrayRider]

If these nonperforming, Canadian outfitters appear personally at some of the upcoming shows like DSC or SCI on US soil then serve them with a federal or state lawsuit and summons for unjust enrichment, non-performance, civil theft, breach of contract, and other possible claims, filed in a US federal trial court. Possibly enjoin any property they have here in the US (including future hunt revenues) until the case is concluded or settled.At a minimum, they would have to defend. Would cost the offended, hunting client more money in legal fees and attorney fees but they are already out big money from the above posts.

Disclosure: Not legal advice and I do not have any skin or money in the Canadian hunt “scam”.

 

[TSAMP]

Most travel insurance companies don't cover pandemic related issues.

That isnt necessarily true. If you are ill/injured and unable to go. That is standard practice for trip insurance. (Pre covid even). If your outfitter is unable to host you due to illness/fire, that is covered. Even if my hunt partner got ill, and I was healthy that was technically reimbursable as we booked together and both had policy's with each other on them. Now full disclosure I never had to collect on these things but these were all questions I asked and verified in my policy that I got in December last year.

 

[Billy Goat]

That isnt necessarily true. If you are ill/injured and unable to go. That is standard practice for trip insurance. (Pre covid even). If your outfitter is unable to host you due to illness/fire, that is covered. Even if my hunt partner got ill, and I was healthy that was technically reimbursable as we booked together and both had policy's with each other on them. Now full disclosure I never had to collect on these things but these were all questions I asked and verified in my policy that I got in December last year.

That would make sense, that seems to me to be the reason for it.

But pandemic related issues I'd take to mean shut downs.

 

[TSAMP]

That would make sense, that seems to me to be the reason for it.

But pandemic related issues

That would make sense, that seems to me to be the reason for it.

But pandemic related issues I'd take to mean shut downs.

Yes I follow now, my bad. The reason for the entire thread being Canada related.. got lost for a second.

 

[tdot]

Just a

If these nonperforming, Canadian outfitters appear personally at some of the upcoming shows like DSC or SCI on US soil then serve them with a federal or state lawsuit and summons for unjust enrichment, non-performance, civil theft, breach of contract, and other possible claims, filed in a US federal trial court. Possibly enjoin any property they have here in the US (including future hunt revenues) until the case is concluded or settled.At a minimum, they would have to defend. Would cost the offended, hunting client more money in legal fees and attorney fees but they are already out big money from the above posts.

Disclosure: Not legal advice and I do not have any skin or money in the Canadian hunt “scam”.

That's not really how the law works. It's a Canadian contract, and typically most Canadian contracts specifically state that Canadian laws rule and that you must file a lawsuit within the Canadian court system. This is due to overzealous Americans looking for their courts to protect them. Half of your suggestion is just straight petty and vindictive.

I know doctors and ski guides who will not work for Americans, I'm starting to understand why.

 

[Red Letters]

I’m not sure why this should be viewed any different from a natural disaster, hurricanes whatever. They deal with mandatory evacuations and have to reschedule based on whether there was damage etc.