Let's talk grazing on public lands...

[Cwsharer]

I’m assuming over 90% of Americans eat beef and less than 5% actually hunt . They both have co existed for hundreds of years now.

 

[Poser]

Not ironic at all.

No doubt many, if not millions of bison grazed the lands 400 years ago, but back then the herds were constantly moving and rotating out to other places. Difference is that back then there were also hundreds of millions of acres of grazable land that was grazed in natural rotation-- with time to recover between buffalo herds. Nowadays, ranchers get a grazing permit park their cattle on the same plot of land for months at a time, some keeping animals there until there is nothing left.

I fail to see any "irony", there is simply no similarity in the land use.

Fire control is another argument or perhaps excuse that I often hear and it is a lame argument at best. To use your words- I find it "ironic" that back in the heyday of the bison, there were massive natural prairies and meadows with natural fires all the time and the grasslands and forests were in great shape. These grass fires burned through areas quickly, were beneficial to grasslands and barely hurt the forests.

JL

It’s also worth noting that massive herds of Buffalo running the plains, while moving around great distances, actually served as nature’s tiller.

 

[GotDraw?]

I concur... All I read is jealousy, spite and selfishness.

by which side?
JL

 

[Chucklehead]

It's funny some think buying a $50 resident tag or $800 NR tag is somehow paying your fair share and covers the tab for having wildlife on the landscapes. Not a chance. Not even close.

Most Pittman Robertson (which is the primary source of funding for wildlife agencies) funds come from firearm/ammo sales of people who never go hunting.
Now that seems to me like non-hunters are subsidising wildlife management. And by extension your hunting/fishing.
Wanna talk about welfare/subsidies freeloaders? Looks like you are on it too because hunting is subsidised.
Some of you need to get off your friggin high horse....

The USFS or BLM negotiated those leases, go talk to them.

 

[GotDraw?]

It's funny some think buying a $50 resident tag or $800 NR tag is somehow paying your fair share and covers the tab for having wildlife on the landscapes. Not a chance. Not even close.

Most Pittman Robertson (which is the primary source of funding for wildlife agencies) funds come from firearm/ammo sales of people who never go hunting.
Now that seems to me like non-hunters are subsidising wildlife management. And by extension your hunting/fishing.
Wanna talk about welfare/subsidies freeloaders? Looks like you are on it too because hunting is subsidised.
Some of you need to get off your friggin high horse....

The USFS or BLM negotiated those leases, go talk to them.

"The USFS or BLM negotiated those leases, go talk to them."

I believe that is what folks are saying on this forum. Let the open market control the price. If the cost of beef goes up, so be it.

The point being made is that if the open market grazing rate on private land is $25/$30 per AUM per month, then what the hell are the Forest Service and BLM doing selling it for $1.30/month? Literally a 95%+ discount to fair market value!? The government has a duty to manage pricing on its assets to the benefit of ALL citizens.

I know this: a 6000+acre drainage I hunted last year had 400 AUMS, so 400 cows and 400 calves. The rancher was paying approx $1.30/AUM x 400 = $520 dollars per month to graze his 800 cattle on that land. Even if the rancher paid for 12 months, the total fee paid to control all grazing on 6,000+ acres was $6240 for the entire YEAR.

I have NO doubt that I could round up 10 hunters to pay $620 each for the right to hunt that drainage w/o any cattle grazing it. There should have been AMPLE grass and elk/mule deer in that drainage, but it was grazed to absolute stubble and I saw ZERO elk.

The Grinch himself could not have done a better job than that rancher of grabbing every blade of grass.

JL

 

[Donjuan]

There were an estimated 30-60 million bison. There are 90+ million cattle currently, plus horses (both non-native species) with far less habitat to go around.

The intellectual dishonesty here in support of agricultural welfare is laughable.

Intellectual dishonesty? So there are 90 million head of cattle on the same lands the bison used

This is like wrestling with pigs

 

[Sccritterkiller]

Living and hunting in NM, I see a lot of this all over the state. This question keeps coming up and I can't seem to answer it, so maybe someone else has a good answer. Why is there so much ranching in these Western states vs the East? With the drought conditions these states have faced year after year, it doesn't seem like the grazing is very good anyways. Yet, head to East Oklahoma or beyond and the water is plentiful and lands are overgrown with vegetation. No doubt there is beef raised in these areas, but why not huge ranches of grass? Maybe these should be a shift in locale for these operations?

I moved to area I am now in 04 in the "east"...nothing but big farms, 500aces+, all around me back then. They were all great folks we got along fine, I had a couple different farms I would do chores for access to hunt the land. It didn't last long with the big Corp house building companies paying big money...offering 20k-30k+ acre they stared buying up farms. Now I am surrounded by 500k-1M homes on half acre lots in fancy communities. I dropped my youngest boy off at friends house last week...I had killed 2 nice bucks and few coyotes on that "street" back when it was a hay filed.

There aren't huge parcels of public land here so the market dictates what happens to private and it less farming everyday.

 

[gelton]

Not ironic at all.

No doubt many, if not millions of bison grazed the lands 400 years ago, but back then the herds were constantly moving and rotating out to other places. Difference is that back then there were also hundreds of millions of acres of grazable land that was grazed in natural rotation-- with time to recover between buffalo herds. Nowadays, ranchers get a grazing permit park their cattle on the same plot of land for months at a time, some keeping animals there until there is nothing left.

I fail to see any "irony", there is simply no similarity in the land use.

Fire control is another argument or perhaps excuse that I often hear and it is a lame argument at best. To use your words- I find it "ironic" that back in the heyday of the bison, there were massive natural prairies and meadows with natural fires all the time and the grasslands and forests were in great shape. These grass fires burned through areas quickly, were beneficial to grasslands and barely hurt the forests.

JL

This can be and is mimicked by many ranchers, its called rotational grazing and has been shown to be a net benefit both for the land and the atmosphere by capturing carbon.

As Poser correctly pointed out, they act like a tiller by disturbing the soil but also fertilize the soil and keep the grass in a state of constant growth, but the key is you have to keep them moving.

This is a guy from Idaho whose steaks are in high demand from 5-star chefs all over the country and he publicly grazes his cattle but keeps them moving.

Wild Organic Grass Fed Beef. From Our Family Ranch to Your Door

Wild certified organic grass fed beef, straight from our Idaho family ranch and delivered right to your door. This is some of the best grass fed organic beef in the world.

www.alderspring.com

And this TED talk explains it as well - Cattle can be a net benefit to public lands and animals if they were grazed correctly -

 

[Wetwork]

Thought I'd mention some tid bits..

The average age of all agricuture producer's ( ranchers/farmers) is 58 years old and up. Nobody young is picking up the reins to take over these "easy" money making trades anymore and lasting. Average ranches only last three generations before being sold out. The average income for a rancher is only 55K a year (How much does a new diesel pickup cost? Or a new tractor? The average number of beef cattle to support a family of four is a whopping 400 head. One family needs 400 beef cows and the land to feed them (either owned or leased property) to be lower middle class. Most family ranches have to have outside incomes to make ends meet.

On a happy note for the anti-grazers permits for public land are at a all time low and declining. The fires are really hammering stuff as you can't reapply to graze for normally five years after a fire. Cattle prices are in the tank right now...what you see for prices in the stores is not what the actual producer gets...not even close.

We don't lease public land, we have around 120 head of cows, and 2500 acres. Same family since 1908. And things are looking pretty bleak. Thank goodness I was blessed and a damn genius to join the military right out of high school and do that for 20 years before I came back home.

I can see both sides and feel sad about both. I see my public lands filled with trash and garbage after every hunting season. Abandoned appliances, old furniture. Squatters in run down rvs just moving back and forth every 14 days like the old gypsies. I find old juice bottles and candy wrappers along every elk trail during hunting season. Humans are slobs. That being said I'm stepping out to watch the elk eat the second cutting of my alfalfa I paid for, planted, and watered. Am I bitter? Nope I'm gonna eat one of those bastards.-WW

 

[87TT]

There is NO way a rancher would or should pay anyway near the fees paid for private land grazing. Public land grazing requires way more work to use for usually lower quality graze. On private land, unlimited hunters and other members of the "public" have access. They disturb the animals, leave gates open, sometimes injure or kill and generally caused them to have lower growth rates (lower value). It's easy to and short sighted to make them a scapegoat. Do I like running into cows while hunting? No, but I don't let it bother me. Well except that one white bull who was always on the prod and clearly did not want me around. Everyone is quick to say learn to live with the wolves and NR hunters, but this is just another thing to get used to.

 

[Donjuan]

Also willing to bet all the anti grazers will spend more time on here arguing over this and the latest Cam Hanes or Rinella thread than actually do anything about it

 

[Cwsharer]

How are you guys making the fair market value argument about cattle grazing but not looking In the mirror and applying that to hunting ? Let’s see maybe 50 bucks for your resident elk tag versus 5000+ for a private land elk hunt ? We are ALL getting a good deal here now shut up and enjoy it while it lasts

 

[Squincher]

I have to wonder how many people complaining about their hunting areas being grazed are the same ones that tell non-residents to be happy they get to hunt at all. It seems we have a clash of the western U.S. "I-gets-mine" attitudes, and the feds and ranchers are telling you to be happy you get to hunt at all. Even on a patch of bare ground.

 

[Cowbell]

This can be and is mimicked by many ranchers, its called rotational grazing and has been shown to be a net benefit both for the land and the atmosphere by capturing carbon.

As Poser correctly pointed out, they act like a tiller by disturbing the soil but also fertilize the soil and keep the grass in a state of constant growth, but the key is you have to keep them moving.

This is a guy from Wyoming whose steaks are in high demand from 5 star chefs all over the country and he publicly grazes his cattle but keeps them moving.

Wild Organic Grass Fed Beef. From Our Family Ranch to Your Door

Wild certified organic grass fed beef, straight from our Idaho family ranch and delivered right to your door. This is some of the best grass fed organic beef in the world.

www.alderspring.com

And this TED talk explains it as well - Cattle can be a net benefit to public lands and animals if they were grazed correctly -

This is how we operate. Unfortunately, this is not how animals are managed on public lands most of the time

 

[tt_johnsclist]

Rinella, Newburg, and lots of other social media hunters make all sort of money from capitalizing public lands but we are upset that someone else is too?

 

[Cowbell]

I have to wonder how many people complaining about their hunting areas being grazed are the same ones that tell non-residents to be happy they get to hunt at all. It seems we have a clash of the western U.S. "I-gets-mine" attitudes, and the feds and ranchers are telling you to be happy you get to hunt at all. Even on a patch of bare ground.

No one here is really complaining. We are discussing issues. I, as a rancher, don't feel that it is the best use of public lands to use public lands as a grazing asset to one individual for grazing if it can serve as increased habitat for more animals that can be enjoyed my many taxpayers.

 

[Cwsharer]

No one here is really complaining. We are discussing issues. I, as a rancher, don't feel that it is the best use of public lands to use public lands as a grazing asset to one individual for grazing if it can serve as increased habitat for more animals that can be enjoyed my many taxpayers.

More tax payers enjoy the beef than the hunting ....

 

[ndmarine]

I’m a hunter and not a rancher, but public land is public land. Most public grazing is regulated to some degree, just like hunting. The last thing I want is more government regulation. I hunt WY and CO, and I’ve not had any bad experiences with public grazing.

Trust me the desert states get hit way harder

 

[ndmarine]

Yep go ahead and attack the very people that would be there to defend your privilege to hunt and fish And live a lifestyle that you love and cherish . These people are out there feeding America while you bitch and complain about their grazing practices having zero knowledge of the cow business. How do you know that cattle aren’t a key player in the ecosystem after being there for longer than you whiners have been alive? Where do you live? Probably in some deer herds winter range I imagine . The ranchers mostly have deeded ground managed for livestock that supports. Tons of wildlife in the summer and critical winter ranges while development swallows up all of the land ranchers have to sell to stay alive so you can live in your wonderful little neighborhoods and complain about things on the internet instead of meeting these families and making an actual difference . Think about the cascading effect of these ranchers going out of business because of higher operating costs . And so what if they are doing good for themselves I didn’t know you have to be a poor rancher driving an old beater to be accepted by posh elk hunters probably packing enough gear worth enough to pay for his powder coated bumpers and fancy stock trailer..... give me a break

The truth of the matter is that public lands grazing accounts for <5% of beef production.

If nothing else I think we can all agree on transparency first - allow grazing leases to be public record - if there is nothing to hide then why can’t I see who is in possession of grazing leases and how much they are paying??

 

[ndmarine]

"The USFS or BLM negotiated those leases, go talk to them."

I believe that is what folks are saying on this forum. Let the open market control the price. If the cost of beef goes up, so be it.

The point being made is that if the open market grazing rate on private land is $25/$30 per AUM per month, then what the hell are the Forest Service and BLM doing selling it for $1.30/month? Literally a 95%+ discount to fair market value!? The government has a duty to manage pricing on its assets to the benefit of ALL citizens.

I know this: a 6000+acre drainage I hunted last year had 400 AUMS, so 400 cows and 400 calves. The rancher was paying approx $1.30/AUM x 400 = $520 dollars per month to graze his 800 cattle on that land. Even if the rancher paid for 12 months, the total fee paid to control all grazing on 6,000+ acres was $6240 for the entire YEAR.

I have NO doubt that I could round up 10 hunters to pay $620 each for the right to hunt that drainage w/o any cattle grazing it. There should have been AMPLE grass and elk/mule deer in that drainage, but it was grazed to absolute stubble and I saw ZERO elk.

The Grinch himself could not have done a better job than that rancher of grabbing every blade of grass.

JL

Gold here. Well put