Loss of endurance on Keto

[JDBAK]

@Frito I am that nutritionist and can assure you I receive no “corrupt money” from any of the companies you mention here. I also have no agenda, just an education in science and chemistry. I’d also be more than happy to delve into the specifics of biochemistry, fuel sources, etc. Feel free to message me your number. This wouldn’t be to argue, but to converse.

This is also one side of the coin. There are other things like the expense of oxygen to breakdown fat vs carbs that play a role in overall performance. Jordan Budd and I just recorded a podcast last Friday delving into more of this. You might find it interesting and check it out when it releases.

At the end of the day, if a person feels better doing this approach, then they should go for it. However, to suggest this is THE way would be misleading. Multiple studies still show impaired performance (time, speed, etc.) when athletes on a low carb diet are pitted against athletes on a high carb diet.

I appreciate your thoughtful post here and sharing your experience.

My only gripe here is what studies are you referring to? What I commonly see is studies on subjects that are not well fat adapted, who've only been at it up to say 3 weeks. That's just not long enough.

It may take 6-9 months, or a year or longer to really adapt to burning fat well. Check out the FASTER study by Phinney and Volock, testing performance among high level endurance athletes. 1/2 high carb, 1/2 low. It included Zach Bitter (holds multiple ultra endurance world records) and Ben Greenfield (and others). The fat adapted athletes there had been on ketogenic diet for an average of 9 months. Bitter claims it took him 6 months to really adjust. They found fat oxidation rates something like 1.5 times higher than what was thought possible, and if I remember right most of the high carb athletes changed there minds after the test.

Bitter refers to carbs as "rocket fuel". It can be useful, and he uses some, strategically. A well adapted athlete can make plenty of glucose for any normal need. But on really big hard high intensity events, some extra rocket fuel helps. He often recovers with strict carnivory.

A major problem is most of us have been almost exclusively running on rocket fuel (carbs/glucose) all our lives, and we suck at burning fat. We have this giant tank of diesel (fat) that we barely even access. It takes awhile to really get good at it.

Other common problems are inadequate salt/electrolytes. Seems the salt requirements go up with less carbs.

I've been low carb for about 4 years (under 100 grams). Keto for 2.5. Carnivore for 20 months. Often strict carnivore for up to a month at a time. I've had no performance drop, likely because I adapted so gradually.
I lift pretty heavy (over double bodyweight squats, 30+ strict pullups), and still do my 2 mile runs in the mid 12 min (at at 45 and I'm really not built to run). I keep getting stronger.

For me, carnivory has been a godsend. I mostly eat fatty red meat...the stuff that tastes good. I'm leaner, stronger and healthier than ever, have no food cravings, sleep and recover great, no digestion problems, no skin problems anymore, no more aches and pains, I can do long endurance events without bonking. I have completely stable energy levels throughout the day.
I just eat until full, add salt and fat to taste, and don't eat again until hungry, never worry about portions sizes.
Basically I eat kinda like a hunter gatherer savage that lives off the land (pre agriculture). I don't worry about staying in ketosis.


I still think carbs are useful, but use sparingly. Some people seem to still do better long term with maybe up to 100 grams of carbs a day. Cool. Whatever woks, and folks will vary some.

Anyway, it takes time to really adapt, and at the end, you still may do better with some carbs.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

@JDBAK

Glad to hear you’ve found something successful for you. Compliance hinges on personal enjoyment of a protocol.

There’s a litany of studies that show a host of different results in any arena of health; however, the totality of evidence is what is important to look at. In this arena, the totality of evidence in peer-reviewed academia suggests my above thoughts.

The OP literally said he was “struggling with endurance on keto”. My initial replies were to that.

Again, couldn’t be happier for you that you’ve found something that works so well for you!

 

[Frito]

I've had some time to really think about this stuff and some new thoughts have come to mind. I can acknowledge that in the end, when all the research is "through", the end result may be that the carb fueled athlete can come out ahead, or yet, people on average might reach their "optimal" performance while being fueled on carbs. After all, when I was the fastest, and best I'll ever be, I was loaded up on carbs, and would supplement with them during events where possible. I think this is a safe assumption.

But I think that there are some caveats to this. For example, If someone is used to eating a typical amount of carbs and then experiments with endurance and low carbing, they are going to suffer, without a doubt. They are not going to see good results or improvement for months, and I feel that 99 out of 100 people will have this experience. Like another poster mentioned, the studies that I keep running across are measuring the endurance of guys who are at different stages of going off of carbs, starting at 1 week, 2 weeks, and so on up to 4 weeks. In my opinion, to publish a study like this is clearly deceptive, and this type of information being put out there to validate that we need "supplemented" carbs for performance is what has me really disenchanted with that side of the argument. I feel like it's basically a lie. You can't expect to take a group of athletes, split them down the middle and have half of them cut carbs and then pit them against each other. The guys cutting carbs will lose. Fat adaptation truly comes with time (at least several months) of a consistent state of ketosis, and training.

Also, if you take the best of the best, on the "carb eating" side, and then take the best of the best of the "keto" side, you have to consider the numbers....majorities and minorities....those plugged into the mainstream, of thinking, of supplements, of our governments direction, and sponsorship. It just isn't fair, and once again, I'm sure the best Ironman in the world is most likely having his share of carbs. I'm also turning into a bit of a conspiracy theorist, thinking that there is a clear agenda to keep a lot of current science pointing to carbohydrates, saturated fat, and grains, suppressed because it is becoming detrimental to Big Food, Big Pharma, and Agribusiness's profits.

From a more fun prospective, I like to also look at it from a "prepper" standpoint, even though I'm not a prepper in the normal sense of the word. When I was eating normally(carbs regularly), I was athletic, but I was always hitting "walls". I would always need a snack to get me back to where I wanted to be. Sometimes I would get shaky and weak, and it was actually quite terrible, even just 2 or 3 hours after eating. I could run 14er's with a ClifBar in my pocket, but I would almost certainly not be doing it without the bar. Or when I was running around on the ridgelines looking for elk I could do it with the best of them, so long as I was snacking on carbs. Now that I stay in a pretty constant state of ketosis, I can run someplace like Bierstadt without even a camelbak, (did it in November). My days of hitting walls are over, and that's mainly what I'm referring to when I talk about endurance. My "backcountry" endurance is at it's best. Running for time, I might be better served with some quick carbs. But if the zombies come, and I'm having to take care of my family and I haven't eaten in 3 days, I can still be a beast in the state that I am now, verses being carb loaded, hangry, shaky and weak after one day of not eating, unable to constantly ease my knife into the side of their skulls like they do in TWD, and take care of my family. But what happens when it's been 5 days, and I run into a Hostess truck like they did in Zombie Land? Is the sudden carb attack going to kill me? That's why cheat days are important.

 

[JDBAK]

@JDBAK

Glad to hear you’ve found something successful for you. Compliance hinges on personal enjoyment of a protocol.

There’s a litany of studies that show a host of different results in any arena of health; however, the totality of evidence is what is important to look at. In this arena, the totality of evidence in peer-reviewed academia suggests my above thoughts.

The OP literally said he was “struggling with endurance on keto”. My initial replies were to that.

Again, couldn’t be happier for you that you’ve found something that works so well for you!

Thanks. Results vary.

Another thing makes this subject so difficult is the term Keto is just to broad. Is it the traditional clinical epilepsy keto diet (90% + fat), or moderate protein (10-20%), or like me 30-35% protein?
Where is the protein coming from, and what's its quality?
And where is the fat coming from? I started off with a lot of cheese and nut butters...that didn't go well, and I wouldn't recommend it. Hell you could get in Ketosis guzzling Canola/Corn/Soybean Oil (really really don't recommend that!).
If I remember correctly, one of the studies cited against Ketosis used mice that were fed 80% corn oil. I don't put much stock in studies like that.

There's a ton of terrible studies out there. Particularly in epidemeology.

I agree, depending on how you go about it, keto compliance can be really difficult.
Seems most of the folks that stay "Keto" successfully migrate to mostly animal based sources. That was definitely my experience. More I went to eating animals (particularly red meat), less I cared about everything else. When I'm strict carnivore, cravings just stop. Cold. Which is still bizarre to me.

Also, I really don't care about chasing ketone levels. A better strategy is how do you feel, how do you recover, digestion, soreness, bloating, inflammation, etc. Ketone levels of 0.5 seems pretty abritrary, and the more fat adapted athletes seem to run only at .3-.5 after time from what I gather.
I'm all for limiting carbs as much as practical, don't care about the ketone level.



Back to endurance. I'm not a high level endurance athlete, but I do occasionally do 1/2 marathons, Army 10 miler, 12-16 mile ruck races, long days skiing and hunting in mountains, etc. Being able to mostly run off fat has been a huge benefit. There's no more bonking, or constantly needing to snack, down gu gels, etc. Not only is the stable energy a big benefit, but there's no more digestive distress. I found that after a couple hours (back when I was high carb) going hard, I could barely get anything down. All that is gone now. I don't need to snack.
Anyway, my results jive pretty closely with what Bitter says. I guess the dominant 200 miler is doing the same thing.

another thing - what kind of endurance events are we talking about? It seems that there probably isn't much if any difference among fat adapted athletes at the elite marathoner level. It's just too intense and short.
However, for the ultra athlete, having that large "diesel" (fat) tank vs running on a tiny nitro boost-rocket fuel tank (carbs) can be a big advantage. The tank is bigger, and diesel engines just last better.

Also, there seems to be a pretty major difference in younger athletes - who can kind of get away with eating anything....for awhile - vs older endurance athletes that are already metabolically damaged. The ability burn fat, and avoid the downsides of excess carbs during recovery has been huge for me. I just recover better and feel better now at 45, than I ever did. I feel better and have less health problems now (none). So much less swelling, joint pain, way more stable energy.

A good endurance strategy, I think, is to largely train for fat adaptation. And when you really need to go hard and long, supplement with some carbs. Do that on particularly long hard training days, and on race day.
Do that, and you are essentially a flex fuel engine, or "metabolically flexible".


rant on:
So here's where I'm at regarding nutritional recommendations. Does it pass the evolutionary biology and anthropological smell test?
If not, it's probably BS.
There's no damn way we got here by eating a ton of refined grains, sugars and seed oils as have been in our dietary guidelines.
And nothing particular against fruits and vegetables, but I don't see how leafy greens and fresh bananas could have been that important.....as I look around here in Alaska, or read about plains Indians hunting buffalo, etc.
It also seems highly suspect that the cause of our modern chronic diseases are ancient foods, that we ate in great abundance, like red meat and saturated fat.
Oh yeah...I should be dead from scurvy, and other things, according to conventional wisdom.

There's a whole lot of conventional dietary advice that is way overdue for a hard skeptical look.
Sorry, rant off.

 

[Frito]

Thanks. Results vary.

Another thing makes this subject so difficult is the term Keto is just to broad. Is it the traditional clinical epilepsy keto diet (90% + fat), or moderate protein (10-20%), or like me 30-35% protein?
Where is the protein coming from, and what's its quality?
And where is the fat coming from? I started off with a lot of cheese and nut butters...that didn't go well, and I wouldn't recommend it. Hell you could get in Ketosis guzzling Canola/Corn/Soybean Oil (really really don't recommend that!).
If I remember correctly, one of the studies cited against Ketosis used mice that were fed 80% corn oil. I don't put much stock in studies like that.


There's a ton of terrible studies out there. Particularly in epidemeology.

I agree, depending on how you go about it, keto compliance can be really difficult.
Seems most of the folks that stay "Keto" successfully migrate to mostly animal based sources. That was definitely my experience. More I went to eating animals (particularly red meat), less I cared about everything else. When I'm strict carnivore, cravings just stop. Cold. Which is still bizarre to me.

Also, I really don't care about chasing ketone levels. A better strategy is how do you feel, how do you recover, digestion, soreness, bloating, inflammation, etc. Ketone levels of 0.5 seems pretty abritrary, and the more fat adapted athletes seem to run only at .3-.5 after time from what I gather.
I'm all for limiting carbs as much as practical, don't care about the ketone level.



Back to endurance. I'm not a high level endurance athlete, but I do occasionally do 1/2 marathons, Army 10 miler, 12-16 mile ruck races, long days skiing and hunting in mountains, etc. Being able to mostly run off fat has been a huge benefit. There's no more bonking, or constantly needing to snack, down gu gels, etc. Not only is the stable energy a big benefit, but there's no more digestive distress. I found that after a couple hours (back when I was high carb) going hard, I could barely get anything down. All that is gone now. I don't need to snack.
Anyway, my results jive pretty closely with what Bitter says. I guess the dominant 200 miler is doing the same thing.

another thing - what kind of endurance events are we talking about? It seems that there probably isn't much if any difference among fat adapted athletes at the elite marathoner level. It's just too intense and short.
However, for the ultra athlete, having that large "diesel" (fat) tank vs running on a tiny nitro boost-rocket fuel tank (carbs) can be a big advantage. The tank is bigger, and diesel engines just last better.

Also, there seems to be a pretty major difference in younger athletes - who can kind of get away with eating anything....for awhile - vs older endurance athletes that are already metabolically damaged. The ability burn fat, and avoid the downsides of excess carbs during recovery has been huge for me. I just recover better and feel better now at 45, than I ever did. I feel better and have less health problems now (none). So much less swelling, joint pain, way more stable energy.

A good endurance strategy, I think, is to largely train for fat adaptation. And when you really need to go hard and long, supplement with some carbs. Do that on particularly long hard training days, and on race day.
Do that, and you are essentially a flex fuel engine, or "metabolically flexible".


rant on:
So here's where I'm at regarding nutritional recommendations. Does it pass the evolutionary biology and anthropological smell test?
If not, it's probably BS.
There's no damn way we got here by eating a ton of refined grains, sugars and seed oils as have been in our dietary guidelines.
And nothing particular against fruits and vegetables, but I don't see how leafy greens and fresh bananas could have been that important.....as I look around here in Alaska, or read about plains Indians hunting buffalo, etc.
It also seems highly suspect that the cause of our modern chronic diseases are ancient foods, that we ate in great abundance, like red meat and saturated fat.
Oh yeah...I should be dead from scurvy, and other things, according to conventional wisdom.

There's a whole lot of conventional dietary advice that is way overdue for a hard skeptical look.
Sorry, rant off.

But Ansel Keyes sorted all of this out. You need to replace saturated fat with carbohydrate. He did a very high profile study that lasted over the course of almost 3 decades with very definitive results. Besides that, 1000 years ago natural carbohydrates like leafy greens and bananas were very palatable and that's mostly what humans ate.

And I hear you about the bonking. I can feel it too.

 

[JDBAK]

But Ansel Keyes sorted all of this out. You need to replace saturated fat with carbohydrate. He did a very high profile study that lasted over the course of almost 3 decades with very definitive results. Besides that, 1000 years ago natural carbohydrates like leafy greens and bananas were very palatable and that's mostly what humans ate.

And I hear you about the bonking. I can feel it too.

Ansel Keys - whatever his intentions may have been, he kinda makes Stalin and Mao look like fools and pikers.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

@JDBAK Seems like you've had great success with a carnivore diet. I've recently tried it over a 'keto' diet and had good success with it as well. Do you mind sharing what you eat on a backpack hunt? I'm trying to get my stuff dialed in for September

 

[cured_ham]

@JDBAK Seems like you've had great success with a carnivore diet. I've recently tried it over a 'keto' diet and had good success with it as well. Do you mind sharing what you eat on a backpack hunt? I'm trying to get my stuff dialed in for September

I have been doing Carnivore as well (for management of autoimmune issues). Backpacking food for me includes frozen steaks for the first day or two, pemmican, and beef jerky. It is a huge pain in the neck but it beats being sick.

 

[cured_ham]

@Frito I
Multiple studies still show impaired performance (time, speed, etc.) when athletes on a low carb diet are pitted against athletes on a high carb

If you look at the actual research surrounding this there are numerous caveats. Adaptation time and protein are two main drivers that seem to determine this. Studies showing people on 6+ months low carb/ketogenic diet with at least 40% of caloric intake coming from protein fared no worse than high carb individuals.

Keto-adaptation enhances exercise performance and body composition responses to training in endurance athletes - PubMed

Compared to a HC comparison group, a 12-week period of keto-adaptation and exercise training, enhanced body composition, fat oxidation during exercise, and specific measures of performance relevant to competitive endurance athletes.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners - PubMed

Compared to highly trained ultra-endurance athletes consuming an HC diet, long-term keto-adaptation results in extraordinarily high rates of fat oxidation, whereas muscle glycogen utilization and repletion patterns during and after a 3 hour run are similar.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Gluconeogenesis + ketosis is more than capable of restoring muscle glycogen needed for activity. I will agree though that many people do not consume enough protein on the typical ketogenic diet and will experience issues.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

I have been doing Carnivore as well (for management of autoimmune issues). Backpacking food for me includes frozen steaks for the first day or two, pemmican, and beef jerky. It is a huge pain in the neck but it beats being sick.

Thanks. You make the pemmican yourself? Any tips?

 

[cured_ham]

If you make it yourself it goes much better rendering your own fat. It’ll stay more solid at higher temperatures vs store bought tallow. I also like to mix in some dehydrated organs like kidney and liver.
If you search CarnivoreBar on google they have my favorite store bought one. I am allergic to damn near everything so I only season mine with salt.

 

[Lelder]

Tomorrow will be 5 months of doing a strict clean keto. My workouts have been great and I have a ton of energy. I know it can be hard but if you can get through the first 4-6weeks you’ll be feeling great!!

 

[JDBAK]

@JDBAK Seems like you've had great success with a carnivore diet. I've recently tried it over a 'keto' diet and had good success with it as well. Do you mind sharing what you eat on a backpack hunt? I'm trying to get my stuff dialed in for September

I’m leaning toward pemmican. Jerky isn’t fatty enough usually. Need to start making my own. I also do smoked or dried salmon, kinda smelly though. Have used hard cheeses and salami, but to much cheese doesn’t agree that well with me.

I’m okay with some carbs for consecutive long hard days. Typically dried fruit.

 

[Cameron945]

@V2Pnutrition knows his stuff. Your body is a multi-fuel system. It can run on FA, PRO and CHO (in fact, it uses all simultaneously, but at different rates depending on activity). The rather large and literal DECADES OF RESEARCH have determined 1) that performance is enhanced in a number of different types of activity when consuming CHO (time to exhaustion; distance covered in time-fixed endurance events; short-duration, high intensity performance, etc.) and 2) The timing and amount of carbohydrate one should consume to elicit such performance gains.
There is ZERO research that shows you can enhance performance above and beyond that of CHO when substituting either of the other two macros. Keto has a time and a place, but if you're struggling and have been struggling, I'd try researching when and in what amounts you should consume carbs. Feel better, perform better, enjoy food more.

 

[Frito]

Tomorrow will be 5 months of doing a strict clean keto. My workouts have been great and I have a ton of energy. I know it can be hard but if you can get through the first 4-6weeks you’ll be feeling great!!

Keep it up if it is making you feel good and your workouts are improving. I'm going on about a year and for the first 6 months or so I was hard core. I saw both strength and endurance improve. I've since done some cheating and carb cycling, but only because I enjoy eating certain things. They definitely aren't necessary, and haven't really set me back. I'm back going pretty hard core keto again and can feel the gains.

Not about endurance but I just read another good book that I would definitely recommend to any beginner, or veteran. It's called WHY WE GET FAT by Gary Taubes. Great read. It does a lot of explaining as to how the body being a "multi-fuel system" might apply to someone with any degree of metabolic syndrome (insulin resistant).

 

[*zap*]

The basic 40/40/20 for macro % with 20% being fat is a great place for anyone to start. Keep all the foods natural foods not processed foods, water/coffee/green tea/tea for liquids, 4-6 smaller portions for meals, eat every 2-4 hours based on what you have done and what you plan to do. So that's all high power NATURAL foods which contain ONE ingredient. NO PROCESSED FOODS, no refined sugars, no additive's in your foods. Carbs/protein before and after strength training. Fasted LISS (low intensity steady state) cardio first thing almost every day staying in the level 1 and low end level two heart rate zone and you will drop that stubborn gender specific visceral fat pretty fast while raising your low end aerobic system so you can do the same things @ a lower heart rate.

If you transition to this type of nutrition program it can easily become a sustainable diet for many years.......sugar cravings?...................eat sugary fruits like blueberries until you get past that stage, even if it takes many months to get past that......it does not matter because the goal is sustainability, staying on the natural foods and close to that macro %. Stay that course and it will become an enjoyable diet. 6, 500 calorie meals is 3000 calories which is enough to sustain a hard driving lifestyle.

You get you caloric deficit from the daily LISS which if done fasted will trim up your body fat % in short order (depending where you are starting at). The LISS will also expand your low end aerobic system atp production so you can fuel your activities for many hours.

 

[Frito]

What is the modern science behind "calories"/thermodynamics, specifically how they are applied to the human(or any species) metabolism? .....vs modern science involving fat metabolism?