Mathews limbs help

[OR Archer]

as stated before I did the top-hat tuning before, and it didn't work out. And the cam lean is noticeable when the bow is on the draw board and I can see how the cam top leans to the right in full draw and goes back in the rest position. And that gives my arrows the flick and a 10 to 15 mm tail left tear. Now, for most shooters that might not be a big issue, as e.g. for a hunting situation the distance will be long enough to straighten the arrow if the fletching is sound. However, I also do 3D, and sometimes they put the targets in a distance of close to 6 m and having a bullet hole tuned bow can make the difference between an "A" or a "B" here. If you use your bow only for hunting, the vitals are big enough (especially if it would be only 6 m ) so it really doesn't matter for you, but if you do more with your bow you want to have it shooting clinical, precise bullet holes.
The point is that the genuine setup of my bow differs from what you stated here - and of course the particular deflection of the limbs is linked to cam lean. With the "old" systems with the yokes outside (Hoyt, PSE went back to it) half of a twist of a yoke string could make the difference to shift the loads on the particular limb - most of the time the impact it had on the limb and subsequently on cam lean was not visible with the bare eye, but it could make all the difference wrt shooting bullet holes.

..."has nothing to do with cam lean" ...?????....where do you get this from?????

Where do I get this from? Oh I don’t know. Maybe it’s the decade plus I spent managing one of the biggest Mathews dealers in the US Just maybe.

 

[bigW]

oh well, that adds to the explanation wrt overall quality of Mathews bows and service...

 

[OR Archer]

oh well, that adds to the explanation wrt overall quality of Mathews bows and service...

I’m going to take a guess and say you don’t have a complete set of top hats and that you were just using the ones that came on your bow thus resulting in you still having a left tear after moving them. How close am I?

 

[bigW]

....back to a more scientific discussion: I finally found an explanation for the hand written ratings that bow manufacturers write on the limbs - credit to @wapitibob here: https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/nock-right-paper-tear.215133/page-3

With this definition (deflection measured in mm (TBC?!?) at 6" for the nominated poundage of the bow) I have to correct a few of my statements above:

1. the handwritten lower number actually indicate the STRONGER limbs (less deflection under load).
2. therefore the stronger limbs were actually on the opposite site of the cable!

So how does this make sense? .....the point of application of the overall force (vector as a result of yokes, cable and string forces) shifts from the centre to the right (to where the cable is) ...so why putting the weaker limbs there? ....

Maybe an expert like @OR Archer will know and is willing to share his knowledge with us.

...and wrt "top-hats": they cost AU$ 110 here in down under - which reflects on Mathews shitty business strategy: selling flagship bows with questionable quality (limbs, cam bearings, coating) for tons of money, taking months to resolve warranty claims by shipping parts that are not identical with the genuine ones, and asking over $100 for tuning parts that are made for a few cent in China.

 

[bigW]

hm, maybe the hand writing doesn't means "mm" (I live in a metric world so this assumption came natural) but - as it is referenced to the nominated poundage of the bow - the ratio of POUNDAGE to deflection in INCH? ...e.g. 0.65" of deflection at 6" results in 70 lbs/0.65" = 107.7 ...

...back to the drawing board and measuring the actual deflection at 6" .... @wapitibob : if you read this maybe you can enlighten us....

 

[Holocene]

I am in the process of rebuilding a Halon 32 that I bought new in 2016. When I took it apart, limb deflection values were written on the limbs. I got a pair of replacement limbs with different values — these were a different color than my bow, so I sold them and will buy another set.

Then, I called Mathews and talked with a tech. I straight up asked him whether I can get an exact match set of limbs (same deflection) so that I can use the same top hat configuration I’ve set up already.

He said that limb deflection does not matter now — that end users are expected to tune with top hat kits. This is fine to me, because I have a handful of them sitting around.

So…limb deflection seems to be natural and varies with each setup. The top hats are intended to fine tune your cam spacing to get a good tune. Important: the advice you see to just “switch the top hats” is bush league and not complete advice. What you need to do is put the rest at 13/16”, buy the full top hat kit, and methodically identify your tears and make small adjustments to tune it out. Start with your vertical tear and move to horizontal after that.

Jesse Broadwater has a good Vimeo training series on this for about $80 online. There’s some free online content and a helpful tuning chart out there as well.

Agreed: I’d expect Mathews to ship kits with every flagship bow!! Or charge less. Not sure they are made in China necessarily, but they are a little rich that’s for sure.

I say all this as someone who’s shot only Mathews for 7 years and actually likes the top hat system — although I have a press and so my own work now. It’s frustrating for someone not fully equipped, yes. That frustration inspired me to build a home shop and work on my own bows.

Just some experience, hope that’s helpful.

 

[bigW]

Thanks for this - that's good feedback....so they just expect that we clean up their mess and cashing out the next over $100 for required tuning parts (these extra costs are not mentioned in the fine print), and - if you are unlucky and don't have an own bow press and are familiar with this kind of work - have to travel to a dealer and wait till it gets done and have to pay the dealer too...

Nevertheless, in my case even the top hat tuning (and I tried every combination and spend ours on it) didn't gave me bullet holes - so I spend the $$ for nothing ....which adds to the frustration with this brand....

 

[Zac]

I had a horrible left tear last year I couldn't get rid of. I cut my arrow down as short as it could go and shimmed max distance to the left. I talked to a guy on AT called Nuts and Bolts that told me it was actually a draw length problem. I tried a shorter loop and all of a sudden had a right tear. So really my draw length was just about a half inch long.

 

[bigW]

the DL definitely can play a role as for longer DLs the string "pulls more from the top of the cam" thus once you have already cam lean at max. draw (for what reason ever) it will emphasize this cam lean (I can clearly see this when pulling the bow back on the drawing board). A shorter DL is much more forgiving in this realm. However, I'm very reluctant to shorten my DL (currently 31" with Mathews which is 31.5" for other brands) as I worked really hard to find the right length for me and don't want to compromise on DL for a more moderate string angle because of the limitation of the bow (which is actually specified for my longer DL - was one of the reasons why I bought it in the first place).

 

[Zac]

the DL definitely can play a role as for longer DLs the string "pulls more from the top of the cam" thus once you have already cam lean at max. draw (for what reason ever) it will emphasize this cam lean (I can clearly see this when pulling the bow back on the drawing board). A shorter DL is much more forgiving in this realm. However, I'm very reluctant to shorten my DL (currently 31" with Mathews which is 31.5" for other brands) as I worked really hard to find the right length for me and don't want to compromise on DL for a more moderate string angle because of the limitation of the bow (which is actually specified for my longer DL - was one of the reasons why I bought it in the first place).

I would encourage you to explore the possibilities. It really doesn't hurt anything to tie a bunch of different length loops. Especially if you have already exhausted every other avenue. If all of the specs add up then draw length is probably your culprit.

 

[bigW]

I would encourage you to explore the possibilities. It really doesn't hurt anything to tie a bunch of different length loops. Especially if you have already exhausted every other avenue. If all of the specs add up then draw length is probably your culprit.

if you read through my post you see that I fixed it with an - I admit - unusual approach by shimming the right limbs in the pockets. The design of the Mathews pockets makes this unusual approach actually pretty easy and a shim made out of an old credit card is easy to cut to size and seems to provide just the amount of thickness to achieve the same adjustment of pre-tension compared to half a twist of a yoke string of older bow designs (well, PSE just got back to this option with their "new" precision bus tuning system). I actually was surprised that it worked so well, still, it shouldn't require such "ingenuity" troubleshooting skills when buying flagship bows.

Eta: wrt "I was actually surprised..." ....it shouldn't come as a surprise as Mathews and credit cards always go together .

 

[bigW]

...did more pondering why the top-hat tuning failed for my bow...

one of the downsides of the top hat system is (and I don't mind that you have to take the whole cams out to do it) that there is actually not much room for big variations. The Traverse already came with the moderate pair of top-hats with both of the the wider top-hats at the right side. Considering this and that the total spacer width is only 0.175" (4.445 mm) - that's for the pair of top-hats - there is really not much real estate left to move the cams further to the left, even with a AU$110 Matthews master kit (BTW: a Hoyt HBX spacer kit cost me AU$ 30 here down under - that's less than a third!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) ...with the thinnest top-hats from the master kit both on the left the cams shift approx. 1 mm towards the left, which might be enough to balance shorter DLs, but doesn't work for my 31" without matching limbs. When you look as a comparison to Bowtech's dead lock system: here you can easily move the cams 5 mm to the left or the right!

hm, the more I pondering about it... this flicking of the cams that caused the tail left tear might have also contributed to the multiple cam bearing failures as they are not meant for coping with a sideway impact ...

 

[Zac]

if you read through my post you see that I fixed it with an - I admit - unusual approach by shimming the right limbs in the pockets. The design of the Mathews pockets makes this unusual approach actually pretty easy and a shim made out of an old credit card is easy to cut to size and seems to provide just the amount of thickness to achieve the same adjustment of pre-tension compared to half a twist of a yoke string of older bow designs (well, PSE just got back to this option with their "new" precision bus tuning system). I actually was surprised that it worked so well, still, it shouldn't require such "ingenuity" troubleshooting skills when buying flagship bows.

Eta: wrt "I was actually surprised..." ....it shouldn't come as a surprise as Mathews and credit cards always go together .

Flagship bows don't require that much work to tune. You need to consider that the problem is likely you and not the bow.

 

[bigW]

Flagship bows don't require that much work to tune. You need to consider that the problem is likely you and not the bow.

???? ....the bow is not even 2 years old and I got the limbs replaced under warranty (splinters - unfortunately the limb deflection of the replacement limbs doesn't match the genuine ones, and that is causing the tuning issues) and I'm on my third set of cams (all replaced under warranty as the balls of the bearings have been of so low quality that literally every shot left a dent) so taking the waiting periods off till the parts arrived I might have shot the bow for just one year....but I'm the problem?????? ....because I actually shoot the bow and don't let it catch dust for most if the time?

I own also a Chinese bow (Topoint 350) I bought for less than a third!!!!! of the "flagship bow" price and due to the lower price I might not have treated it as good as the Mathews, but it actually never failed, easy to tune, no issues with the limbs, no issues with the cam bearings.

 

[Zac]

???? ....the bow is not even 2 years old and I got the limbs replaced under warranty (splinters - unfortunately the limb deflection of the replacement limbs doesn't match the genuine ones, and that is causing the tuning issues) and I'm on my third set of cams (all replaced under warranty as the balls of the bearings have been of so low quality that literally every shot left a dent) so taking the waiting periods off till the parts arrived I might have shot the bow for just one year....but I'm the problem?????? ....because I actually shoot the bow and don't let it catch dust for most if the time?

I own also a Chinese bow (Topoint 350) I bought for less than a third!!!!! of the "flagship bow" price and due to the lower price I might not have treated it as good as the Mathews, but it actually never failed, easy to tune, no issues with the limbs, no issues with the cam bearings.

A lot to unpack here. I don't think limb deflection was ever an issue. The limb shimming is obviously unnecessary and is being used to cover some kind of error. First it was the wrong limbs, and now you're on your 3rd set of cams and bearings? I think the bearings usually go bad when the axles are over tightened. All of this is just a little hard to conceive. Also if I understand you correctly you know that your draw length is too long yet you won't change it? Maybe I missed it, but have you purchased an actual Top Hat kit and tried tuning the bow the way Mathews intended?

 

[bigW]

A lot to unpack here. I don't think limb deflection was ever an issue. The limb shimming is obviously unnecessary and is being used to cover some kind of error. First it was the wrong limbs, and now you're on your 3rd set of cams and bearings? I think the bearings usually go bad when the axles are over tightened. All of this is just a little hard to conceive. Also if I understand you correctly you know that your draw length is too long yet you won't change it? Maybe I missed it, but have you purchased an actual Top Hat kit and tried tuning the bow the way Mathews intended?

wrt to limb replacement: If you read through the posts you notice that this is now the way Mathews approach those warranty claims - you just don't get the genuine setup. However, I'm convinced that the engineers, when they develop a bow, put some thoughts into it, and that lead to the fact that the Traverse was designed with different limb deflection left and right. Now a smart manager comes and says keeping 2 different limb types on the shelf to cover our life time warranty is too expensive, hence just lets go with 1 type. Now this may work for 95% of the warranty cases, but the Traverse was also offered for longer DLs, and that is where the issues start. With the draw cycles we see today in modern bows that hold this peak plateau for most of the draw cycle if makes a huge different energy wise if you can store this additional amount of energy that results from 1" - 2" more DL. A bow is much more forgiven with shorter DLs, while the longer DLs stack up significantly more energy that get the bow parts closer to, or even over the edge. There is a reason why the Mathews Atlas for longer DL customers had suddenly a much longer brace height, or look at the PSE EVO 33 XF with the E2 cam, or the Bowtech Revolt XL - all these bows come with a significantly bigger brace height to avoid energy "overload" if shot with a longer DL.
If you have a sophisticated equipment that is run at the edge of the operation parameter specs you better make sure that you stick with replacement parts that have the genuine specs. If not, and the equipment is actually heavily used (I actually shoot this bow quite a lot when it works, on average 100 shots a day, and 50% of the bearings last on average approx. 3,000 shots) the chances for parts failing sky rockets.

BTW: wrt bearing issues: the Chinese bearings used in the bow cost me as a normal mortal approx. AU$ 6 each, I'm sure Mathews gets a big discount. To replace the bearings is actually as easy as e.g. doing top-hat tuning: just warm up the cam a little bit with a heat gun and the bearings can easily be pulled out, same procedure to fit the new ones. No dealer I'm aware off does this - the "warranty procedure" is always that I have to make a warranty claim and then I have to wait a month till the complete cams arrive at the dealer in Sydney. Sounds idiotic, still Mathews and the dealers stick with such a stupid warranty regime. Why? ....because archers owning a Traverse, AND shooting a long DL, AND on top of this shooting it very very often are rare, and changing the whole approach to address such rare warranty occasions (unfortunately and obviously not rare for me!) would cost them more then just sending out new cams every time.

 

[bigW]

an update on the deflection figures given in brand specific limb deflection charts (you find this charts for Bowtech, Diamond, Martin, Hoyt ....just not for Mathews):

1. the higher number, e.g. 123 vs 107 is definitely (I could verify this with information from the Elite website) the stiffer (heavier) limb that gives you LESS deflection respectively needs more poundage for the same deflection;
2. None of the manufacturers mention the unit in the charts, but as the limb is nothing else than a leaf spring it is highly likely just "pounds per inch" (I'm still waiting from some feedback from bow manufacturers).

Therefore, the genuine setup had the weaker limbs on the opposite site of the cable (where they should be) and if they are replaced with stronger (same deflection as the ones on the right) it will cause inevitably a tail left tear. Hence if Mathews insists on replacing the genuine ones with limbs that will cause inevitably a left tear and requires a top-hat kit (or as in my case even more sophisticated tuning methods) to tune it, the top-hat kit has to be included in the limb package!