Maximum Mechanical Accuracy v. Acceptable Practical Accuracy

[TheGreatBamReno]

Hi all,

In rifle shooting everyone always talks about how X gun is an MOA, sub-MOA, .5 MOA, etc. gun, usually in reference to the maximum accuracy of a bench mounted rifle. That got me thinking (so figured I'd ask it here), about the following questions related to compound accuracy and would appreciate hearing from you experts here:

1. What do you think the maximum bench mounted/mechanical accuracy (assuming a properly timed and tuned bow and arrow setup, we'll call this "Maximum Mechanical Accuracy") of a modern compound bow is? Is it 1" groups at 50 yards? 1.5" groups?

2. Related, I'm curious how group sizes should be assumed to expand once you add in the human element. So if the bow's Maximum Mechanical Accuracy is 1" at 50 yards, does adding a very talented human (think top tier target shooter, we'll call this "Maximum Human Accuracy") behind the bow open that "best" group size to 1.5", 2"?

3. Finally, as a newer archer, I'm trying to figure out what range of accuracy should I be pleased with, and confident that I'm shooting really good groups - in other words, a level of "acceptable" accuracy. So if the bow's Maximum Mechanical Accuracy is 1" at 50 yards, and its Maximum Human Accuracy is 1.5" at 50 yards, would acceptable accuracy be 2" at 50 yards? 2.5"?

I used 50 yards just as a single benchmark for ease of illustration, but would welcome any thoughts about other ranges as well.


Edited to clarify intent of original question slightly. The reason I'm curious about questions 1 and 2 is to set a baseline of what is theoretically possible to achieve - if I know the bow is only capable of 1" groups at 50, and that group will expand 1" when you put a very good human behind the bow, I then know that shooting 2.5-3" groups at 50 is pretty close to as good as I'm going to shoot. I'm also just inherently curious about question 1 - mechanical things that throw projectiles are fascinating to me so I'm curious what the machine is actually capable of.


Thanks,
Cory

 

[jmez]

If you can consistently put your arrows inside the kill zone of the target animal at a given distance it is acceptable.

 

[TheGreatBamReno]

Completely agree with that line of thinking, but I guess I'm looking more so for a guide this off season to dial that in even a little more while training. I've gotta believe that a well practiced archer can group arrows tighter than a 8-10" group at 50, so trying to figure out what is really reasonable to strive for (I'm obviously not a target archer).

Cory

 

[bsnedeker]

Accuracy standards are completely dependent on the individual depending on their goals. Are you trying to win tournaments, or are you just worried about hunting? I'm not a target shooter, so my personal goal is to be able to hit a softball at 60 yards. That's the furthest shot I'm currently comfortable taking at an animal so that's what I base my standards on. I practice out to 110 and my goal there is to be within a 12-14 inch circle. Practicing consistently at these ranges makes 60 yards feel much easier.

As far as the max. accuracy that a mechanical shooter could achieve I'm honestly not interested in that question because none of us are machines.

 

[TheGreatBamReno]

Thanks, appreciate the input. The reason I'm curious about Maximum Mechanical Accuracy is that it sets the baseline for what is theoretically possible. If I knew the bow is only capable (in ideal tune) of shooting a 2" 3-4 arrow group at 50 yards, I'm not going to be banging my head against a wall shooting 3" groups and ignorantly thinking I'm capable of doing much better.

Cory

 

[Beendare]

Bows are capable of incredible accuracy. MMA with a Hooter Shooter and tuned bow is same hole.

Many of the Vegas pros can come very close to this shooting all arrows into a 1 9/16" ring [the 10 ring, x ring inside that is 13/16"].

Brady Elison recently shot a 900 round- all arrows in the 1 9/16"-10 ring- shooting fingers!!!!!

Hunting is different ...and anyone that has been a bowhunter for a while knows that just because you can shoot good groups at 80yds on targets that doesn't mean you will be effective on game at those long ranges- animals move, conditions are more challenging and variable- in other words; stuff happens which decreases your effective range.

_____

 

[jmez]

If you are trying to get an "accuracy standard" for archery equipment on the internet, prepare to be banging your head against the wall and ignorantly thinking you can't meet the standard.

 

[Jacob Chapman]

That's an interesting way to think about accuracy.

From a shooting machine, assuming tuned bows etc- bows can be crazy accurate from what I've seen. Sub 2 inch groups to 100 wouldn't be out of the question by a machine.

 

[307]

You'd have to define your terms in order to get a more meaningful answer.

3 arrow groups? 5? 10/10 arrows? Practice or competition? How about inside or outside... Check out world archery on YouTube. Those guys are shooting 50 ish (metric) and you can see their groups. They're the best in the world, so it's probably a pretty good guide as to what is possible.

Those are full target setups (long bars, magnification, small housing/peeps, etc.) though so it would certainly be different for hunting bows...

Throw in broadheads, weather conditions, unpredictable terrain and you can see how setting a "standard" becomes quite challenging.

In "bench rest" conditions, Minute of Archer seems reasonable. 1" per 10 yards. So, 2" groups at 20 yards, 4" at 40, etc. That would be my opinion as to the standard. It won't win you any gold medals, but it's probably better than the vast majority of archers (except internet archers...).

Given all of that, it always comes down to one "cold bore" arrow, with conditions to consider, emotion/adrenaline, and a moving/unpredictable target. Way too many variables to get a very solid definition.

The final question is always what defines success? I can put an arrow inside/out in the 10 ring at 20 yards sometimes... I can hit the x about half the time, I'll hit the 10 about 27/30 times. In order to claim a certain standard, do you need to be able to do it once? Every time? Never miss?

 

[Gorp2007]

A lot of people (especially over on a forum that specializes in Talk about Archery) will use 1" per 10 yards as a rule of thumb. I'm now starting my second year with a bow and I can get there on my good days but I'm not there on 100% of my shots every day. For me, I've got three goals with my equipment right now and only 2 are measured in inches. First, develop my process so that my groups are consistently centered on the bullseye and aren't migrating around the target from day to day. Second, reduce the number and radius of my flyers. Third, strive to get my 3-shot groups into a 1"-per-10 yard ideal. To me, it's more important that my "oh s***" arrows be inside a 6" circle at 30 than for my average arrow to be inside a 3" circle.

 

[Jellymon]

Don’t be discouraged by internet claims of accuracy. If you want to feel really good about your shooting, go to local 3d shoots where the real shooting is on display, not a picture of that persons best group ever. Like what was said above, the best shooters in the world are trying to keep all shots within 1 1/2” at 20yds, or basically 3” at 40. The top 2%ish of pros shoot tighter than that, but you get the point. That is with more forgiving target setups without broadheads.

 

[docmay]

My archery “moa” has always been 1” per every 10 yards. So I shoot for 5 inch groups at 50 yards and 10 inch groups at 100 yards. When I was at my best I could do that pretty consistently. Now I can at times. Struggling with eyes getting older and a bit of target panic.

 

[Billy Goat]

In my experience most bows are capable of a very surprising degree of accuracy out of a machine. It's the arrows that are inconsistent. Most bows will put the same arrow in the same hole out to 50 yards, some further than that. However it's the discrepancy in the arrows that cause the groups to open up.

The difference in accuracy with target bows is they make them easier for a person to shoot.

Biggest takeaway I have had is that you need to be careful in arrow selection. I use to find the weak spine and fletch according to that but found I still needed to nock tune. So I have largely went away from spine testing the arrows unless I'm trying to cull a batch and select a group that have the same spine or very close.

 

[5MilesBack]

When a bow is set perfectly to fit you, your pin float will be almost non-existent. When there is almost no pin float at all (the pin just sits there over the bullseye), and you are set up for arrows to hit behind the center of those pins, you can be extremely accurate out to whatever distance you have pins for. When my bows are set up that way I expect to hear my arrows slapping together or hitting fletching regardless of distance. The trick is getting that bow perfect.......which isn't always easy. Draw length is probably the most critical aspect of that. Even very small adjustments can make a big difference.

The other one is eye sight. When your target and pins are crystal clear it's pretty easy to see what you're aiming at. When your eyes start to fade, your contacts constantly blur up from the wind or dryness, and your pins are a blur because of age.......it's just not realistic to be aiming at the exact same spot every time.

But "acceptable practical accuracy" is being able to hit the vitals every time you shoot an animal. That's a pretty large acceptable hit zone depending on what you're hunting.

 

[TheGreatBamReno]

Thanks everyone. Good feedback and things to think about.

I've got to admit, I'm pretty amazed that a bow could be capable of 2" (~ 2 MOA) groups at 100 yards. A marvel of modern manufacturing to have a bow and arrow capable of those kinds of groups, especially when you think about what your above average rifle is capable of shooting. That gap is much smaller than I expected.

To sum up what folks have stated so far, it seems like a goal of shooting 5"-6", 3-4 arrow groups at 50 yards is a good target to train to at the range. Understand completely that when you throw a broad head on and get into hunting conditions that level of accuracy becomes harder to consistently obtain, but that's why we train for this.

One of the other sources that got me thinking about all of this was John Dudley's conversation with Aaron Snyder about arrow priorities (Ep 232 in case you're interested). Aaron suggested that everyone should be able to consistently hit a horizontal and vertical strip of duct tape out at 40 yards. I haven't attempted that yet, but it got me wondering how realistic that really is.

Cory

 

[KyleR1985]

I attempt to shoot the 1” per 10 yards out to 100, but with pack on, or kneeling, or heavy clothes, or heart rate up, etc.

I rarely can finish a session succeeding(actually never), but what’s the fun in setting a goal I can easily reach.

I usually can hit thattype of consistency if I slow down and shoot comfortably without the distractions.

I also mix in sessions shooting from unknowndistances, angles, positions etc, with a goal of a kill shot every time. Those sessions become more frequent the closer I get to live action. Unfortunately I’ve learned my yard too well, I need to find a new range

 

[19hunt92]

I cant resist not commenting:

1. What do you think the maximum bench mounted/mechanical accuracy (assuming a properly timed and tuned bow and arrow setup, we'll call this "Maximum Mechanical Accuracy") of a modern compound bow is?

My experience is that, assuming a bow is set up to perfection (yes set up affects accuracy: timing, cam lean, rest center shot, tiller measurement (one limb being turned out more than another)) and arrows are set up perfectly (flawless vanes, carbon seam aligned, exact weight, exact deflection number) the accuracy rivals that of a rifle. The only reason we can't actually prove this is because who has a perfect climate controlled room that has zero affect on an arrow for its time of flight and also have 100 ft ceilings to account for arrow arc.

2. Related, I'm curious how group sizes should be assumed to expand once you add in the human element.

Welcome to archery, the human element is what makes it suck or be rewarding. The human element is 99% of all errors. Assuming a person is well versed in archery and perfects his set up in the front end, I would say along the line of 1/2" per 10 yard increments. I have my bad days, but shooting with IBO guys often we can regularly hit an 11 ring out to 40 yards (being that the ring is around an 1.5" circle and the width of a target arrow being .38"). A weekend hunter, i would go more towards 2" per 10 yards. Then you add in the good days and bad, as well has wind and then up hill and down hill, that number can grow immensely.

3. Finally, as a newer archer, I'm trying to figure out what range of accuracy should I be pleased with, and confident that I'm shooting really good groups - in other words, a level of "acceptable" accuracy.

What are you hunting, where. I will get hacked on this i am sure but the animal you are hunting can change your acceptable yardage grouping. A whitetail is quick, edgy and always ready to bound. I can drill a 6" circle on a bad day at 50 yds, but when i release an arrow, that deer has moved a foot before my arrow even gets there. Not a chance at taking that shot. Elk are slower, you can get away with way more reaction time and arrow flight. Knowing that, you can push 60-70-80 yds as long as you can hit half the size of the kill zone is my standard. look at the anatomy, a deer has roughly a 10" kill zone, what ever distance i can hit a 5" group every day is what i call maximum target accuracy, then i look at the ability of the animal to move prior to the arrow getting there, that is the ethical distance for me. Which ever the smallest number is what i go by as my max distance.

 

[targetpanic]

Some very good answers in here...not nearly as many "internet hero" size groups that you would find on other forums.
To shed some light on some of your questions...Dave Cousins (one of the best target shooters of all time) used to spend a LOT of time using a hooter shooter to tune and cull through arrows. With a Hooter Shooter he could repeatedly get dime size accuracy out to 70 meters (77yds) as long as their were no environmental factors. I'm sure you could get even better results in an indoor setting out of a shooting machine.
The current World Archery World record for 50 meters (55yds) is held by Braden Gellenthien, who is one of my best friends. The day he shot that record was one of those perfect weather days...not ridiculously hot, low humidity, slightly overcast skies, and light but consistent wind. He shot a 719 out of a 720 on an 80cm face...in other words 71 out of 72 arrows into a spot ~3" around.
I agree with most here...if you can consistently shoot 1.25" groups per 10yds with your hunting setup, you are doing just fine...far better than most.

 

[5MilesBack]

Aaron suggested that everyone should be able to consistently hit a horizontal and vertical strip of duct tape out at 40 yards. I haven't attempted that yet, but it got me wondering how realistic that really is.

I have always used vertical and horizontal lines for precision shooting with a bow. I use electrical tape held on with golf tees. And by precision shooting I mean.......tuning, setting up my sight pins, etc. It's really easy to hold on one plane at a time.......i.e. on a vertical line without worrying about elevation..........or on a horizontal line without worrying about windage. So you can get very precise for those particular adjustments as needed. Then once you're done with all that, your arrows should be hitting behind your pins if you've set it up right. And as long as you can hold your pin tight to your aim point, that's where they should hit. At that point it's all the shooter, because the bow should be perfect.

Next time you're at a range try shooting the edge of the target face instead of the bullseye.....vertical or horizontal. You'll see that it's pretty easy to shoot those edges because you're only concentrating on one plane. So you may have arrows spread out vertically (shooting the vertical line), but they should all be real close to the edge. You can do the same thing while hunting.......draw a mental vertical line from the front leg up to the top of the back, and eliminate everything in front of that line. By eliminating something, you have less to try and hold for and you'll be more accurate.

 

[Beendare]

Then when you get that MOA target accuracy on flat ground under perfect conditions....go out and shoot a 3D round to humble you- grin

Animals move in real life....you can't always hold on target for 10 seconds and slowly squeeze. Practicing how to get off a quick accurate shot.........and having a shot sequence that works in the woods is the next step.