Meateater: Ashby and Rinella

[Billy Goat]

I never understood the gripe about Ashby, he advocates building effective equipment to kill stuff and tested it on animals!

A lot say it is dated, however it is still evolving and based on physics. I have a moderate weighted arrow but have played with everything.

Back in the early 2000s I managed a pro shop, had a customer order a bow for an Elephant hunt, 100lb PSE gorilla, had to build his arrows my self.

Took a cx400 and epoxied it inside a 2315 I believe, 210 grain steel force black death heads standard inserts and 3 5 inch feathers to stabilize the head, never measured foc, not very high for sure but the arrow wound up 1085 grains, I remember that weight for some reason.

Started with the bow at 90lbs and it was crazy quiet and accurate, no idea on speed but it sunk that arrow into a new target deep!!! Was a fun project and I invented the full metal jacket!

You are a turkey man, Ashby's stuff talked about a 450 grain arrow being the minimum for a turkey.

My experience differs.
By a fair amount.

 

[Billy Goat]

To me the idea that a 400 grain arrow won't breach bone in a turkey is a little absurd.

 

[dtrkyman]

HAHA, funny you mention that, I shot a tom at 25 yards broadside with a 400 ish grain arrow and a big cut mechanical, hit him dead in the butt of the wing, lopped his wing off, he ran off and I walked out with my jaw on the ground when I found my arrow and his wing lying on the ground, the arrow never entered the bird!

I account that more to the broadhead than the arrow weight but who knows?

Scenario number 2, similar arrow and head 15 yards front on, shot a tom dead center, he dropped, as I was grabbing another arrow I looked up to see the bird I shot get up and run off like a road runner, again jaw on the floor, walked out got my arrow and it was broke off at the ferrule of the broadhead, the arrow never entered the bird, the head must have been stuck in his breast bone.

His arrow weight for bone breaching is based on a 100 percent of the time ratio, so at his minimum recommended arrow weight it will always penetrate, he does not say a lighter arrow can not.

I have killed a lot of turkey's with a bow and those are the only two that penetration was an issue.

So who's the turkey?

 

[N2TRKYS]

View attachment 314377


To me the idea that a 400 grain arrow won't breach bone in a turkey is a little absurd.

Heck, I thought the objective was to keep your arrow in the turkey.

 

[Billy Goat]

Heck, I thought the objective was to keep your arrow in the turkey.

I just head shoot.


They aren't as bad as a chicken, but they don't go that far.


I like breasts.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I just head shoot.


They aren't as bad as a chicken, but they don't go that far.


I like breasts.

Nice! I’ve never cared to bow hunt turkeys, but I remember reading years ago that that was the thought process.

 

[Billy Goat]

Nice! I’ve never cared to bow hunt turkeys, but I remember reading years ago that that was the thought process.

I don't have the time to hunt them, but I shoot them in the fall.




I'm what the real turkey hunters hate, my bad.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I don't have the time to hunt them, but I shoot them in the fall.




I'm what the real turkey hunters hate, my bad.

Shooting them in the Fall is against my religion. The Fall hunting them just isn’t as exciting to me. Alot of folks like it, though.

 

[Billy Goat]

Shooting them in the Fall is against my religion. The Fall hunting them just isn’t as exciting to me. Alot of folks like it, though.

I like eating them.


I'm not picky. Nothing am I a purist in. I don't pass bulls just because they didn't come in screaming.

 

[shadow24]

I noticed a lot of this myself. I love the MeatEater network and what they stand for, but the episode was a little awkward. Steve has made it clear several times in the past that he’s a firearm hunter first, simply because of increased chances to put meat on the table, at which time he’ll work his magic. But the Ashby and FOC theory makes a lot of sense……up to a certain point and application. I LIGHTLY tested the same concept on my own gear. My results: heavy arrow shot deeper and carried more energy/speed farther down range than my light arrows….conclusion documented and field-tested on some yummy whitetails. The whole theory is dang-near identical to the same concept in the handgun world introduced by Elmer Keith. He blazed the trail on heavy, solid bullets at lower speeds and recorded penetration depths into oak boards. Pretty dang interesting stuff. To this day, we still shoot LBT bullets from a .44 mag thru the shoulders. So, long story short, I shoot heavier arrows (still sub-600 gn) because I’ve seen it work, but there’s a fine line for what I want, regarding speed and penetration. I love what the foundation is researching, but, man….so many variables to consider based on personal preferences.

 

[Slugz]

His data set is a valid data set IMO and if you keep it at the strategic/60,000 ft level I think he is saying "every little bit matters" that's its, nothing more. Sounds like he acknowledges that you probably cant do all the things he describes and not degrade something else, but every little bit helps.

Anybody know if Easton made the T64 because of his research ?

The comparison to Elmer Keith is spot on as is the "many variables to consider base on personal preference". I found the subject interesting. First I ever heard of the guy or the foundation.

 

[Billy Goat]

His data set is a valid data set IMO and if you keep it at the strategic/60,000 ft level I think he is saying "every little bit matters" that's its, nothing more. Sounds like he acknowledges that you probably cant do all the things he describes and not degrade something else, but every little bit helps.

Anybody know if Easton made the T64 because of his research ?

The comparison to Elmer Keith is spot on as is the "many variables to consider base on personal preference". I found the subject interesting. First I ever heard of the guy or the foundation.

Easton did the t64 so the olympic recurve shooters could have a slightly larger diameter with the forgiveness of the 500+ spine.



If they thought advantages existed past line cutting, you me, and every redneck from key west to Jersey shore would believe in it, and we would be fighting fo' the shafts.

 

[Rob960]

I've met some pretty crazy and stupid Ophthalmologists in my life. Seriously, they have more quacks than some of the other fields I've worked with. I wouldn't agree that becoming a doctor trains you to learn quickly, more teaches you to follow procedures based on assessments on biological and social factors... I would argue the military trains you to learn quick. For any degree at any level, they are not approached the same. An ophthalmologist doctorate does not follow the same methods as an MD let alone a PhD for researching physics. He was likely exposed to research but may never have been taught how to carry out proper research in a field like physics. Seems he DIY'd it...

I believe you are confusing ophthalmologist, an actual physician, with an optometrist.

This reminds me very much of the controversy between those who supported Dr. Gary Roberts who spoke on ballistics and bullet effectiveness and those who questioned what does a dentist know about bullet effectiveness.

 

[Bmoore]

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To me the idea that a 400 grain arrow won't breach bone in a turkey is a little absurd.

No offense but it seems your completely misreading the chart. It says you can use less than 400 on small game. I’d also wager that no one at Ashby foundation would argue that a turkey has a heavy bone. The heavy bone threshold is talking soecifically about large joints like the knuckle on a whitetail or really big shoulder blades like you would see on Buffalo. Seems the chart is pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Billy Goat]

No offense but it seems your completely misreading the chart. It says you can use less than 400 on small game. I’d also wager that no one at Ashby foundation would argue that a turkey has a heavy bone. The heavy bone threshold is talking soecifically about large joints like the knuckle on a whitetail or really big shoulder blades like you would see on Buffalo. Seems the chart is pretty reasonable to me.

Chart says minimum range, below heavy bone threshold.


Only way that a 400 grain arrow isn't going thru a coyote or turkey is it's propelled by 25# or it isn't tuned.
Or has a blunt on the front.

 

[Slugz]

Easton did the t64 so the olympic recurve shooters could have a slightly larger diameter with the forgiveness of the 500+ spine.



If they thought advantages existed past line cutting, you me, and every redneck from key west to Jersey shore would believe in it, and we would be fighting fo' the shafts.

"Beyond the math, the T64’s tapered profile further contributes to penetration. Since the shaft starts at 6mm diameter directly behind the broadhead, the decreasing diameter of the shaft as it moves through hide and muscle tissue means significantly less friction on the shaft the farther it penetrates. A consistent-diameter shaft, by contrast, has an almost equal amount of friction applied to it throughout its passage through an animal. This means that the T64 gets a “penetration boost” by virtue of its tapered profile. And anything that adds to deeper penetration or more reliable pass-through shots is a big win in our book"

Seems like there is at least one engineer at Easton who believes in less friction = more penetration enough to make a hunting line of arrows that's tapered. Interesting.

 

[Bmoore]

Chart says minimum range, below heavy bone threshold.


Only way that a 400 grain arrow isn't going thru a coyote or turkey is it's propelled by 25# or it isn't tuned.
Or has a blunt on the front.

Again. A turkey doesn’t have heavy bone. Period. The study defines heavy bone as the large leg bones of larger game. Nothing about the chart suggests you won’t get a pass through on game with the specified arrow. Only that the weight is below the heavy bone threshold. In the case of a turkey that means it’s irrelevant since a turkey doesn’t have a heavy bone. A small whitetail doe probablly doesn’t have a stiff enough leg bone to be considered heavy by the studies standards. A 400 grain arrow will certainly pass through even a large whitetail bucks if you hit them is the ribs. But the chart is saying that your not gonna break heavy bone like the knuckle on a big whitetail bucks with 400 grains. Again the charts pretty reasonable and I doubt most guys would even disagree with what it is actually saying.

 

[Billy Goat]

Br

"Beyond the math, the T64’s tapered profile further contributes to penetration. Since the shaft starts at 6mm diameter directly behind the broadhead, the decreasing diameter of the shaft as it moves through hide and muscle tissue means significantly less friction on the shaft the farther it penetrates. A consistent-diameter shaft, by contrast, has an almost equal amount of friction applied to it throughout its passage through an animal. This means that the T64 gets a “penetration boost” by virtue of its tapered profile. And anything that adds to deeper penetration or more reliable pass-through shots is a big win in our book"

Seems like there is at least one engineer at Easton who believes in less friction = more penetration enough to make a hunting line of arrows that's tapered. Interesting.

Broadheads cut holes bigger than shafts.
But it's easy to sell as a sales pitch.

 

[FLS]

Ive never net either one in person but I get the feeling a little would go a long way.
I don’t understand what upsets folks about the Ashby studies. It was based on trying to kill large animal in Africa. To do that they had to maximize penetration.
The figured out that a well tuned, heavy arrow with a sharp stout cut on contact head, worked best. That’s it. It’s not new. Take that info and scale it to what you hunt. About every 10 years, this cycle repeats itself and Ashby study comes back into the limelight. Only difference is this go round we have YouTube and podcasts.

 

[EastMT]

I have never tried really heavy arrows, but I do find I like the results of slower heavy bullets from my rifle. I can see the parallels to what I prefer, so I’m willing to give it a maybe. I wouldn’t mine trying a steeper angled heavy 2 blade. Only one way to know one way or the other.