Mil is SUPERIOR

[Lawnboi]

it's on my rifle lol

wait...here ya go https://www.instagram.com/p/Cc8XA1ZJ3D1/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

My mph gun number dosnt need to be on my scope. I only have to know one number, which for my rifles I know by memory. Plus I have a hard aim points in my reticle for those corrections already. Sound like a better system?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

My mph gun number dosnt need to be on my scope. I only have to know one number, which for my rifles I know by memory. Plus I have a hard aim points in my reticle for those corrections already. Sound like a better system?

which number do you need to know?

you run a windplex style reticle and dial up your elevation? this would be my number 2 method, next least busy reticle choice, xmas trees are a no go for hunting imo, so you know the 10 mph moa like the original botw?...I'm faster holding distances in inches or feet as that shit is burned into mind from a lifetime of using these measures with work, school and play

I don't need to consult my 'numbers' either, they are on the scope as reminder and can aid speeding up the quick math on some quartering wind speeds, with quartering wind directions with quarter range numbers.

run your shot sequence by me please, we may be close and splitting hairs here, but we like that shit so lets do it

 

[Lawnboi]

which number do you need to know?

you run a windplex style reticle and dial up your elevation? this would be my number 2 method, next least busy reticle choice, xmas trees are a no go for hunting imo, so you know the 10 mph moa like the original botw?...I'm faster holding distances in inches or feet as that shit is burned into mind from a lifetime of using these measures with work, school and play

I don't need to consult my 'numbers' either, they are on the scope as reminder and can aid speeding up the quick math on some quartering wind speeds, with quartering wind directions with quarter range numbers.

run your shot sequence by me please, we may be close and splitting hairs here, but we like that shit so lets do it

The mph gun number. Example my 223 with 60tmk I was shooting prairie dogs last week is a 4mph gun. That’s ALL I need to remember for my ENTIRE wind chart.

The bullet is moving .1mil, per hundred yards in 4mph 90degree wind.

So 4mph wind

200: .2 mil
300: .3mil
400: .4 mil
500: .5 mil

Even better you can multiply that out. So I know my hold for a full value wind at 4mph, 8mph, 12mph, 16mph…. And so on.

All that from knowing one number and some practice. It’s not hard to calculate and cut in angle, and different wind speeds that don’t perfectly line up.

So a shot that I took that day. 300 yards, 8mph steady with 11mph gusts. At 8mph and 300 yards my bullet is moving .6mil, .9mil for a gust. Shooting at a prairie dog. 2 inches off is a miss.

As far as judging wind angle, best thing Iv found for that is my wind puffer I’m carrying in my bino harness already. One puff and I know exactly how to cut my wind angle at the shooter.

My reticle is a nightforce mil c, mil xt or a Swfa mil dot, but any mil based reticle will work. A plain Jane duplex reticle does not belong on a rifle shooting game at 600 yards. I dial elevation and hold wind with my reticle nearly always. I can use either of the reticles I listed hunting effectively, Xmas tree not needed.

So now you can rip that sticker off your scope and write X mph gun on your drop chart and be done! You know your wind for any foreseeable shot, not just 10mph or any other arbitrary number.

I also realize this is a quick and dirty way to call wind. Yes there is a time and place to try to get it perfect. But I’m not doing that till I need to based on what I’m shooting that day.

THAT is what this thread is about. Not the measuring system because we all know minutes and mils will get you to the same spot.

Either way guessing a 15” hold at a 600 yard target on a line with nothing to measure with is Kentucky windage. Yea it might work once or twice but you are not doing it consistently.

Also comparing an f class shooting to field shooting is like me comparing centerfire to BB gun. Different worlds.

Give it a try. If you learn it it’s an easier way to call wind quickly and effectively. I fought it for years making charts on my gun. Sometimes there’s just a better way.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

can't compare gopher shooting to big game hunting, it's just a target discipline, zero pressure, you can make anything work there and clearly you need to as a different level of precision is needed, my method works pretty dang good on coyotes to about 620 as my farthest so far...big game even better, your reference is right in the animals

so...we both do the same mental mathing on the wind variables, I'm watching it from the minute I start hunting and keep mental notes on speeds/directions/gusts etc., you have a busier reticle, but remember 1 number, I have simpler reticle and remember 4, don't worry I tried the wind-plex style reticles and you lose time trying to place that 3rd little hash or was it the forth little hash, the short one or the long one...when you could just zip over 16" on the body and let it buck...again, big game hunting, even coyote hunting, take your mils and I'll take my inches, and I'll beat you into the kill zone faster in more situations...I will concede you'll be right there with me most of the time but when time and pressure is max, my system will be faster and more intuitive which is what is needed in those situations when you go auto-pilot on big game

we are splitting hairs here but one is simpler than the other imo, I didn't grow up in mils, my brain is permanently fried in inches/feet, it becomes the most instinctual, natural and speedy when the heat is max

nothing Kentucky about it, we both do the same thing, one simpler than other, your reference is in busy reticle, my reference is on the body of the critter

 

[Lawnboi]

can't compare gopher shooting to big game hunting, it's just a target discipline, zero pressure, you can make anything work there and clearly you need to as a different level of precision is needed, my method works pretty dang good on coyotes to about 620 as my farthest so far...big game even better, your reference is right in the animals

so...we both do the same mental mathing on the wind variables, I'm watching it from the minute I start hunting and keep mental notes on speeds/directions/gusts etc., you have a busier reticle, but remember 1 number, I have simpler reticle and remember 4, don't worry I tried the wind-plex style reticles and you lose time trying to place that 3rd little hash or was it the forth little hash, the short one or the long one...when you could just zip over 16" on the body and let it buck...again, big game hunting, even coyote hunting, take your mils and I'll take my inches, and I'll beat you into the kill zone faster in more situations...I will concede you'll be right there with me most of the time but when time and pressure is max, my system will be faster and more intuitive which is what is needed in those situations when you go auto-pilot on big game

we are splitting hairs here but one is simpler than the other imo, I didn't grow up in mils, my brain is permanently fried in inches/feet, it becomes the most instinctual, natural and speedy when the heat is max

nothing Kentucky about it, we both do the same thing, one simpler than other, your reference is in busy reticle, my reference is on the body of the critter

Your talking like Iv never shot big game and don’t understand. I’ll keep my pants on as this isn’t a measuring contest.

Inches, feet, centimeters, meters is all bull crap. It’s an angular measure you are adding another step to, all to make your mind work with it. Scopes adjust in an angular measurement, not inches or feet, cm or meters. Your adding a step that does not need to exist under the guise that it’s easier. When the pressure is on your time training with your rifle is where you go to. Don’t train…. Yea add a foot and send it, Iv done that too, it dosnt always work.

Estimating inches on target without a ruler or unit of measure IS Kentucky windage. Glad it works for you. I’m simply along with the OP sharing why what is referenced in the OP is easier, faster and more accurate than exactly the dated practice you are preaching.

At the end of the day it’s a tool in the tool box, not the end all be all.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

sometimes, or more often than not, we figure out the simplest/best way right out of the gate, and as per human nature, we go fack it up and then have to come up with a whole new set of solutions to deal with the can of worms we just opened up...it's what we do best, I think they call it occams razor

wind is almost entirely subjective game, as you agreed with the math you do as well, it's up to us to figure out the wind value, our gear can only tell us roughly what's going on, you transpose your subjective wind math to your multi-aimpoint style reticle and depending on what plain it's on you may have to ensure you're on the right scope magnification so there's a step many won't wanna forget, I don't add any unnecessary steps and if you don't have to remember to dial magnification up then you are pretty much the same...you just have to move your chosen hash mark or gap between chosen hash marks and hover that over kill zone, you saying you don't gap hash marks? that's a bit Kentucky no? I've done this, after about 4 hash marks it's easy to lose count and pick the wrong hold...so there's that, I just have to move up to about 18" worst case and touch off, in the real world I'll land within 2" of you all day long and I'll be in the kill zone and I'll be there just as fast or faster (on big game)

your system will make your 300 yard gophers fun, I run mil-dots on my .22's for gophers, we just spot hits from 50-100 and then see what dot is needed and clean up that area and move to the next batch of rats, no rangefinder required, keep it pretty simple that way, all your wind holds are off target though...not so with big game

from 6.5 Grendel, to 6.5 Creedmoor, to 6.5 PRC, .5 to .625 bc, a typical .8 second time of flight gets you to 550, 600 and 650 yards respectively from 20" barrels, dialling up 6' to 6.4' of elevation on all 3 respectively at those .8 second distances, your full value 10 mph crosswind 19.4" to 22.4" for each of them at those same ranges, a pretty good rule of thumb distance potential for most of us above average players pushing our gear closer to potentials and min impact velocity distance thresholds, so...all we're typically dealing with is sub 2' foot of windage worst case and game that is much larger than that...that is not the same as gophers, it's not the same as prs if talking 8" or 10" gongs, we have full animals to reference against in big game hunting...that's very usable! why is that not discussed more? too many guys looking at little gongs I guess and fall down the rabbit hole

it's not that complicated, many make this out to be much more complicated than it is, big game kill zones have a little wiggle room that's not hard to land inside, most of our wind holds are under 18", what do you need for that again? Mil's? please...I don't add any angular anything outside dialling up to about 5' of elevation as I call'r quits around 500 with my short barrel Grendel although I know every click beyond 500 up to 600 is 5 more yards I can certainly still scare the crap out of and hit some yappies after 500 if they wanna sit down and stick their tongues out, don't bet against me getting it right, seeing a foot out there with animal we know so well is as precise as you're multi aim point reticle, whoever reads the wind call and does his quick math best will be closer to the 10 ring...it's not gonna be measurable between the reticle hold or the inches hold between guys who know their set up and game

gophers yes, they're only 2" wide lol, so you're off body hold on everything past mbpr, if you gotta hold 3' of wind on them then you're gonna want aim points on the reticle or dial in...that would be akin to holding 8'-10' for a deer...but we don't hold way off target on big game do we? no...we are almost always on fur depending they way they're pointed to the cross wind, not hard to move a few inches out front if you know you need 18" total, you're gonna get those balloons

if op stated mils are best for gophers and prs or big game over 700 yards I wouldn't have said a thing lol but his blanket statement being in the backpack hunting section where most assume big game primary...well...I just had to start spittin, I'm sure they work great but I disagree they are the best

 

[Lawnboi]

sometimes, or more often than not, we figure out the simplest/best way right out of the gate, and as per human nature, we go fack it up and then have to come up with a whole new set of solutions to deal with the can of worms we just opened up...it's what we do best, I think they call it occams razor

wind is almost entirely subjective game, as you agreed with the math you do as well, it's up to us to figure out the wind value, our gear can only tell us roughly what's going on, you transpose your subjective wind math to your multi-aimpoint style reticle and depending on what plain it's on you may have to ensure you're on the right scope magnification so there's a step many won't wanna forget, I don't add any unnecessary steps and if you don't have to remember to dial magnification up then you are pretty much the same...you just have to move your chosen hash mark or gap between chosen hash marks and hover that over kill zone, you saying you don't gap hash marks? that's a bit Kentucky no? I just have to move up to about 18" worst case and touch off, in the real world I'll land within 2" of you all day long and I'll be in the kill zone and I'll be there just as fast or faster

your system will make your 300 yard gophers fun, I run mil-dots on my .22's for gophers, we just spot hits from 50-100 and then see what dot is needed and clean up that area and move to the next batch of rats, keep it pretty simple that way, all your wind holds are off target though...not so with big game

from 6.5 Grendel, to 6.5 Creedmoor, to 6.5 PRC, .5 to .625 bc, a typical .8 second time of flight gets you to 550, 600 and 650 yards respectively from 20" barrels, dialling up 6' to 6.4' of elevation on all 3 respectively at those .8 second distances, your full value 10 mph crosswind 19.4" to 22.4" for each of them at those same ranges, a pretty good rule of thumb distance potential for most of us above average players pushing our gear closer to potentials and min impact velocity distance thresholds, so...all we're typically dealing with is sub 2' foot of windage worst case and game that is much larger than that...that is not the same as gophers, it's not the same as prs if talking 8" or 10" gongs, we have full animals to reference against in big game hunting...that's very usable! why is that not discussed more? too many guys looking at little gongs I guess and fall down the rabbit hole

it's not that complicated, many make this out to be much more complicated than it is, big game kill zones have a little wiggle room that's not hard to land inside, most of our wind holds are under 18", what do you need for that again? Mil's? please...I don't add any angular anything outside dialling up to about 5' of elevation as I call'r quits around 500 with my short barrel Grendel although I know every click beyond 500 up to 600 is 5 more yards I can certainly still scare the crap out of and hit some yappies after 500 if they wanna sit down and stick their tongues out, don't bet against me getting it right, seeing a foot out there with animal we know so well is as precise as you're multi aim point reticle, whoever reads the wind call and does his quick math best will be closer to the 10 ring...it's not gonna be measurable between the reticle hold or the inches hold between guys who know their set up and game

gophers yes, they're only 2" wide lol, so you're off body hold on everything past mbpr, if you gotta hold 3' of wind on them then you're gonna want aim points on the reticle or dial in...that would be akin to holding 8'-10' for a deer...but we don't hold way off target on big game do we? no...we are almost always on fur depending they way they're pointed to the cross wind, not hard to move a few inches out front if you know you need 18" total, you're gonna get those balloons

if op stated mils are best for gophers and prs or big game over 700 yards I wouldn't have said a thing lol but his blanket statement being in the backpack hunting section where most assume big game primary...well...I just had to start spittin, I'm sure they work great but I disagree they are the best

Woah a lot to answer.

-My scopes are ffp. I can use my reticle at all magnification but really it never goes over 16x. And while I can gap “hashes”. They are .2 mil hash marks and I’m not out shooting a .1 mil if I need to shoot center.

-I have bigger guns too. It works exactly the same as my 223 but my creedmoor is a 6-7mph gun depending on environmentals and my 3006 is a 7-8mph gun depending on environment, mainly altitude.

-Im one of the few that thinks shooting a rimfire is nothing like a centerfire. I get as much from shooting a rimfire as dryfiring my center fires. Still fun though. My “gopher gun” has dropped a hand full of deer now, and out to 400 I have zero hesitation with it if the winds not crazy. This system works just as well with my big guns, I’m not saying I think it works. Iv used it and hit what I was aiming at much further than I’d shoot at game.

-when I shoot at an animal, I don’t think my shot is going to be good enough, ehh I’ll still kill it if I catch the liver…. That’s not me. I want to know where my bullet is going. Less margin for error on all ends makes hitting stuff, big game, small game, targets, whatever easier. If you don’t have a ruler in your scope your not measuring anything at distance. Now you’re not only guessing at the wind, your also guessing at your wind hold, along with having nothing for an aim point. How is that easier? Again Kentucky windage. If you don’t think a 2’ wind call isn’t going to cause you a problem when shooting at say a deer…. Then I would guess your just trolling.

-Your right, understanding the angular measurement that your scope works on is not complicated. Shoot enough and it’s not hard to learn. What is complicated is taking an angular measurement like moa or mils and turning into inches/feet/centimeters. Your creating something you can’t scale out or in, because your scope and in turn trajectory does not work like that.

Again with the gophers, I provided one recent real life example of how it works and you just keep going back. Yea a gopher gives me 2”left and right of my aim point. In that example I said .9 mils, not 3’. Shooting is shooting is shooting. If you can’t take a controlled shot because you get the jitters with an animal in front of you, you probably should be shooting past a distance where wind means a damn anyways.

-If you don’t think that 10 plus mph of wind can cause a problem sub 700 yards on a deer sized animal than I’m better off talking to a wall.

I still can’t tell if you’re trolling or being sincere. Anyways if you haven’t tried it how would you know what your doing is better?

 

[Novahunter]

I grew up hunting. Started shooting PRS 5 years ago, and got into it because I wanted to be a better shooter and hunter.

There's alot in the sport that is applicable to hunting, and I've been using the gun mph concept for my wind holds for a few years now. It works quite well to estimate accurate wind holds under time pressure at various distances.

For MOA vs. MIL in general, lots of internet ink has been spilled on this subject. Both work, but MILS is much faster and more intuitive. Base 10 systems simply are easier. Whichever you use though, don't think in inches at all, think in the angular measurement (MILs or MOA).

 

[BjornF16]

Elevation (density altitude) plays a role…

For example, 6.5CM launching 140 ELDM at 2650 fps gives me a calculated wind value of 7 mph at 600’ but 9 mph at 8,000’

 

[Flyjunky]

I think a lot depends on your particular ballistics and what you get used to. For my main two hunting rigs which run right around 3000fps, with a .3ish bc (g7) my 1000 yard full value 10mph wind hold is 5moa or .5 moa for every 100 yards. So for a 600 yard shot with that same wind it's 3 moa (.5 x 6). For a 5mph it's 1.5 for 600. Being able to use .5 for every 100 yards makes things really, really easy.

 

[wind gypsy]

Back to back World War champs don’t need to use the metric system

I know it’s a joke but I’m not aware of current us snipers using MOA scopes..

 

[Stinky Coyote]

no guys I'm not trolling, you're not wasting your time here, I'm learning about your systems to see if a better mousetrap has come along than what I got to over some trial and error as well...

the 600 yard example above at the two different elevations is less than an inch difference in wind hold(12.86 vs 11.97)...you'll make more errors figuring out the subjective math we all have to do anyway with angles/directions/gusts of wind that's actually present, and your corresponding subjective answer to pick which ever hold point you've decided on...if you look at enough charts for your rig, play with your lowest elevations and highest elevations at your average hunting season/coyote season temps...you'll see the differences in data holds are going to be less that what you can figure out reading the wind to choose your value in the first place

and we can all agree most of us aren't going to be sending in full value crosswinds at our outer limit distances...we will work our way in closer as we know even with how good we get with our systems it's still a subjective game figuring out the actual variables across that valley or whatever...most of us are going to play inside a ~12" wind hold value, you also subjective on the game figuring out where in a given 10" kill zone you'd like to land, are you a high shoulder guy, a lungs guy, a heart guy? we all tend to have more of one type of these hits than another so you're still doing subjective hold on an animals kill zone and where we want to be within that...kentucky

I just looked up some mil reticles...and looked at that chart...3" or .3 mils hold? really...no that's just useless noise on a reticle or chart for a hunting situation where we already know how big the animals are, I'll hold 3" instead of trying to find .3 mil on a reticle...at 600 yards 12" or .55 mils? I don't get it...this is not screaming hunt friendly and fast, once your past about 3 dots of wind hold you're gonna lose count of which dot to hold, much easier to just move over 12" on the kill zone...or where you like to hit in the kill zone...and send it, simple af

I do see the value in learning a system that can crossover to big game hunting if you're gonna do precision centerfire gopher shooting and PRS or other competitive shooting disciplines where you can't reference against the size of smaller targets so you've cleared that up for me. There was still value in discussing this here as the OP didn't state specifically what MILS is best for....so I will still disagree that it's best for big game hunting, I'll hold inches. I would join you guys if I ever decided to get into the competitive shooting worlds or centerfire gopher thing and needed a cross the board system to learn...I only care about coyotes to sheep though so I'll stick to what I believe is the simplest/fastest method for hunting them, I've been a strong closer all my life, bow or gun, as I started young but I'll poke my head into the new this or that and see if better mousetraps come along but my eye will always take the best of the new and use it the simplest way possible, causes least amount of grief afield when you're on auto-pilot closing deals.

I'll add this, I do like data mining and making use of said data mining. So it helped to study as many ballistics situations from my 3750' to 8600' range and temps...if you do that and know your target sizes are big game primarily and some coyotes for winter fun...you will see that you can get away from needing ballistics computers afield...you will see an elevation point that will keep you within 1 or 2 clicks on elevation dial ups all the way out to your .8 second tof range where on the big game you're still in there and you may miss some coyotes at max distance...you will see your wind holds are simple and consistent, you can round them to easy remember inches because you're gonna subjective the heck out of the wind call anyway...you need only references...reticle references or on animal references is the difference we are doing in this discussion. We're all trying to simplify things best way in our set up and before we head afield. I'm not sure getting dependent on all the computers and noise is a good thing for hunting, data overload for such a simple short holds, ignoring the obvious reference data the animal gives you is not the way to go imo.

 

[BjornF16]

no guys I'm not trolling, you're not wasting your time here, I'm learning about your systems to see if a better mousetrap has come along than what I got to over some trial and error as well...

the 600 yard example above at the two different elevations is less than an inch difference in wind hold(12.86 vs 11.97)...you'll make more errors figuring out the subjective math we all have to do anyway with angles/directions/gusts of wind that's actually present, and your corresponding subjective answer to pick which ever hold point you've decided on...if you look at enough charts for your rig, play with your lowest elevations and highest elevations at your average hunting season/coyote season temps...you'll see the differences in data holds are going to be less that what you can figure out reading the wind to choose your value in the first place

I don't think your math is quite there, or I'm just misunderstanding you.

If I use the 600' elevation wind speed of 7mph at 8,000' elevation, I will actually incur a 3.5" delta between 600' and 8,000' (8,000', 7 mph wind - 9.4" drift/0.43 mRad)

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I was just reading the two charts above, not my data, 300 yard and 600 yard wind holds, inches and mrad columns. His charts show less than 1" delta between those two elevations at 600 yards, believable enough to me. As I said, even using your 3.5" delta...if you can read that on your wind call afield between the two situations you're a wind reading god, it's still wildly subjective that only experienced guys can make use of their systems afield. The point here is someone, or more than one, is saying using inches wind hold is straight up guessing and should never be done, maybe even saying irresponsible indirectly. Uh...ya don't do that. Don't make assumptions like that, some simpleton with a basic rifle and a rangefinder might show you why not to do that one day. While telling you to take your time as you try and make the same shot he just did in a blink.

 

[BjornF16]

I was just reading the two charts above, not my data, 300 yard and 600 yard wind holds, inches and mrad columns. His charts show less than 1" delta between those two elevations at 600 yards, believable enough to me. As I said, even using your 3.5" delta...if you can read that on your wind call afield between the two situations you're a wind reading god, it's still wildly subjective that only experienced guys can make use of their systems afield. The point here is someone, or more than one, is saying using inches wind hold is straight up guessing and should never be done, maybe even saying irresponsible indirectly. Uh...ya don't do that. Don't make assumptions like that, some simpleton with a basic rifle and a rangefinder might show you why not to do that one day. While telling you to take your time as you try and make the same shot he just did in a blink.

Copy...I was trying to point out in my original post with the charts that there is a difference in drift between elevations...in my example 7mph and 9mph.

If I were to move to 147 ELD-M, it would be 9 mph and 11 mph...straddling would be an easy 10mph.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I think a lot depends on your particular ballistics and what you get used to. For my main two hunting rigs which run right around 3000fps, with a .3ish bc (g7) my 1000 yard full value 10mph wind hold is 5moa or .5 moa for every 100 yards. So for a 600 yard shot with that same wind it's 3 moa (.5 x 6). For a 5mph it's 1.5 for 600. Being able to use .5 for every 100 yards makes things really, really easy.

I agree that if you're gonna play beyond about 3/4's of a second time of flight and 6' foot elevation dial ups and 22" 10 mph wind hold corrections you'll want to move up to one of these systems. Your example puts your .8 second tof range around 675 yards (22" wind, 6.5' dial up etc.) your 1000 yard is 1.3 seconds time of flight, 19' feet of dial up and 4.75' feet of 10 mph wind to deal with but don't totally bet against a guy who knows those measures as instinctually as breathing. I'd agree with having some solutions beyond inch holds when dialling in nearly 5' of wind drift lol. Those are end zone bombs only a few quarterbacks can get right haha.

How I see your 3 moa 600 yard wind hold...3x6 = 18" lol, won't be looking for 3rd hash or gap a 2/4 hash, I'll just zip over a foot and half and giver. Both simple and work, both guys that practice will do well, whoever reads the wind closest will rule the day...one guy might be a touch quicker under pressure though.

The units of measure need to match the task at hand and what your brain has been wired for from life. We don't grow up with mils and we don't typically need more than 2' of correction. Does that need to be broken up into 10's? Slow. Most of our brains are wired in inches/feet, those references are right on the animal. We can sure over complicate things. More guys likely to run an moa reticle better in hunting situations over mils by my estimate unless you're very metric oriented to begin with on lengths...we're all hybrids these days. I'm imperial on length measures under 1 meter, fluent beyond a meter but have simply done too much work in inches to try to work in cm's although cm's would sound much better when describing a certain appendage, fluent on velocity measures (driving or wind, mph, km/h), fluent of fuel economy numbers (mpg or l/100km). I tend to speak 'American' when on American forums and Canadian measures on Canadian forums...read the audience and be courteous lol. It doesn't seem necessary to warrant a 10 divisible system for less than 2' of correction...it sounds far better suited to when you're likely to be holding well off your reference (the animal).

The OP didn't really specify clearly enough what he meant MILS was best for lol. We're just clearing that up here.

 

[Shraggs]

Stinky imho, you already gave the best argument for using a wind bracket + angular system….

Post 72 2nd paragraph.

I was a hold inches for wind and mbr for years and successful with deer to about 300.

How does a 40 year deer Hunter extrapolate 12” on a 700 lb elk vs 200 lb deer ethically? I have a friend who has missed 12 arrow shots on bulls. Refuses to use a range finder and has shot under every time. Subconscious references…

Now to your excellent example of drift and elevation at 1000 yards - no way you can hold 5’ and off animal without a reference in my mind.

dialing for distance should be easy. Holding for wind is the challenge as you note, but If you know your rifles wind bracket (however determined) then hold the correct hash reference on the animal - weather moa or mils.

If that at all seems plausible for going long, then I myself felt I should have one system for short medium or long. And, small medium or big game. Hold for wind based on the drift expressed in angular or moa/mil consistent with scope choice. Dial for distance hold for wind using reticle regardless of animal size. Gopher, deer or elk - same wind same hold.

For me, it is far simpler and vastly faster. The burden and my main focus and time is getting the wind call which I find very challenging at this stage in my learning past 500 yards.

Fwiw.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

to 300 yards just nudge the crosshair into the wind a touch from center of boiler room and it's meat in the freezer, there's nothing further required for big game or coyotes with any modern cartridge/bullet, so I believe you had no issues to 300, it becomes a reference factor game as you go beyond 300 though, and since you're learning this will be good timing for you to see one more perspective as you navigate this, look at a lot of data from your rifle combo in ALL these units, moa/mils/inches, you may be surprised what looks simplest for what you intend to do with that rig, just make sure you don't go down a rabbit hole if you don't need to, it's easy to do and guys get too far down the competitive shooting systems and away from hunting simplicity, so study this in all units keeping your goals in mind

otherwise fair points, I guess being an Alberta boy I've been hunting them all and put knives in them all, moving over a foot or foot and a half on any of them including coyotes sitting down facing me is no prob, it is all about picking your system for task at hand, using it, becoming one with it...so when you go on auto-pilot you are quick and effective....I haven't argued that, so if on game references don't work for your brain you'll have to choose another method, we have some good methods to choose from that still hunt friendly, I'd be looking at the simplest ones possible for ranges intended...those multi-mimpoint reticles can be way too busy for chosen tasks

and I've been pretty clear about where and when my simpler system makes sense, up to about .8 seconds time of flight limits(it's the same in bow hunting too fyi), it's sort of a game limiting limit where you have to be really good at reading the animal before sending it or that 3/4's of a second is gonna cost you a fatal hit....one step as they say...which is about where most of us even above average shooters call it quits in even most ideal hunting situations, so if you play in the realms of drop as long as a half ton pick up and wind drifts about as wide as the pickup and time of flights nearly double 3/4's of a second then ya...I agree, reticle reference points or dial it in makes more sense

you can be very fast on big game to ~600 without either of systems talked about in this thread so it's good to see some of these other view points, if all you do and care about is hunting and ~600 is about your max limit...I've presented a very simple and fast alternative, it's effective...will it work for everyone? no, but if you've worked in inches all your life and can see it at distance as you know the sizes of most things in the natural world including the game(trees, ribs, ears, eyeballs, antlers, certain plants etc.)....here's another option to consider

This thread just stated mils are best...I'm saying 'for what?'.

 

[Ucsdryder]

@WeiserBucks commented on @Justin Crossley post about MOA vs Mils. It seems like the hunting community has favored MOA for a while now. Personally, I do not like to change things if they are not broken, but once I understood the wind formulas that can be utilized when shooting in mils, MOA was broken. I have posted a link below for the full article, but they mention a formula to get your gun value. What this does is shows you a quick formula for calculating wind calls on the fly. The article uses BC to calculate your rifle's wind number, but I simply use a ballistic calculator due to them being readily available and a little more accurate when making calculations. To do this you go into your ballistics calculator and set your range at 600 yards. Then you will set your wind angle at 270 and change the wind value until it shows a .6 correction at 600. Once you have done this you should have your rifle MPH.

For example, my 6 BRA is a 7 MPH rifle when pushing a 103 grain VT at 2850. So with that information I know that a 7mph wind at 400 yards is .4, 500 yards is .5, and 600 yards is a .6. With this information, I break it up in my head for 1/2 rifle number wind holds (sounds confusing I know) but what I mean is I can now do calculations for 3.5mph, 7 mph, 10.5mph, or 14 mph all very easily! In the field, you roll up onto your dream 220" mule deer at 500 yards. You do not have time to get your kestrel out. The wind is blowing so you predict the wind to be around 10mph. You know a 7mph would be a .5 wind hold so you multiply that by 1.5 for the 10 MPH and get a .75 wind hold. Now unless you are running a PR-2 reticle you do not have that hold so you quickly round to .7 or .8. At that distance, .1 mils is 1.8 inches so you are still well within the kill zone!

This method is quick and dirty but I have shot numerous PRS matches just estimating wind and using this formula and it works out very well! It also shows that squeezing out the last 100 FPS out of your 300 Weatherby has zero effect on "bucking the wind" no matter how much you would like to believe it!

I have tried breaking this down to be as simple as possible but if it seems a little confusing let me know and I can try to break it down a different way!

Wind Wizardry: BC Wind Formula for Long Range Shooting

Read: Wind Wizardry: BC Wind Formula for Long Range Shooting from Sean Murphy on November 25, 2019 for Recoil.

www.recoilweb.com

This look familiar? For those of us who can’t read goooood.

 

[Lawnboi]

I’m not saying you can’t make it work, the inches argument. I’m saying, if you have a ruler in your reticle why not use it. On top of that if your shooting a distance where wind matters you should want a ruler in there. The well it’s too complicated argument is complete bull. Train with your scope and it becomes second nature. It has for me. It’s a fricken ruler. Can you measure the same 3” on a ruler as guessing 3 inches by looking when your measure it something right in front of you? Which is more accurate? Same can be said for holding for shot drops, how do you do that?

Most guys can’t tell the difference between 5 and 7 inches looking down two feet, and your going to tell me you can accurately measure variable size target 600 yards away looking through a magnified tube? It’s a guess, where we don’t need to guess. Want to see how much your off? Shoot paper at 400 yards a foot right and a foot up from your target with no aim point, does group look like the same one when using the center of your reticle?

If your serious about shooting as you seem to be on the internet it would be atleast worth it to test.