More changes to Montana hunting on the horizon.

[406flyfish]

As a resident, I’m not in favor.

 

[MT257]

As a resident, I’m not in favor.

Care to expand on why your not in favor?

 

[cgasner1]

I’d like to see someone with a explanation on how they can ease the pressure from other hunters without making them stay home. With a growing population we have been facing and like Clancy said the super ranchers that have been forming the state has changed. The only way to change the pressure is to have less people in the woods which requires a change in the tags in some way or another


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[S.Clancy]

Care to expand on why your not in favor?

Prob likes bow hiking and then actually hunting in rifle season....the people I personally know that are against it fall into that group.

Personally, antelope licenses went this way some years ago and I think it was the best thing to happen in that scenario. I think it is a great option in elk (and deer for that matter) along with some other private land access improvement. A multipronged approach with season dates changed, pick your weapon, access initiatives together make the most sense.

I wish they would do pick your season for deer and have archery from about Nov 5th on....but that may cause riots.

 

[MT257]

Prob likes bow hiking and then actually hunting in rifle season....the people I personally know that are against it fall into that group.

Personally, antelope licenses went this way some years ago and I think it was the best thing to happen in that scenario. I think it is a great option in elk (and deer for that matter) along with some other private land access improvement. A multipronged approach with season dates changed, pick your weapon, access initiatives together make the most sense.

I wish they would do pick your season for deer and have archery from about Nov 5th on....but that may cause riots.

I think the OTC elk b options for NR need to be abolished or severely capped. I mean just think how many NR pick a cow tag up that’s otc cause they didn’t draw just so they can go with their buddy. I also wouldn’t be opposed to only offering cow tags to those that hold a combo or a elk license from the draw. But then again as a resident I think we should at minimum choose a region/district. Prior to this year it blows my mind how many people I run into that have a LE permit but hop scotch all around the state and give their permit little attention. In my mind that’s taking opportunity away from someone else that would be or is to hunting just that LE permit. In the districts over objective we need to also focus on managing elk where they are. Meaning if they are on private mainly, issue tags only good on private and not continue to issue tags good for both. We’re piss pounding the public and pushing them to private. Tags good for both are not accomplishing squat.

I won’t comment on the deer issue as this is a elk change proposed.

 

[S.Clancy]

I think the OTC elk b options for NR need to be abolished or severely capped. I mean just think how many NR pick a cow tag up that’s otc cause they didn’t draw just so they can go with their buddy. I also wouldn’t be opposed to only offering cow tags to those that hold a combo or a elk license from the draw. But then again as a resident I think we should at minimum choose a region/district. Prior to this year it blows my mind how many people I run into that have a LE permit but hop scotch all around the state and give their permit little attention. In my mind that’s taking opportunity away from someone else that would be or is to hunting just that LE permit. In the districts over objective we need to also focus on managing elk where they are. Meaning if they are on private mainly, issue tags only good on private and not continue to issue tags good for both. We’re piss pounding the public and pushing them to private. Tags good for both are not accomplishing squat.

I won’t comment on the deer issue as this is a elk change proposed.

Yea, the B tag thing is murky. Certainly a ton of NR utilize them to go hunting. I think instead of doing away with NR B tags we should cap public land B tags at a lower level @ special draw and have private land only B tags that are uncapped. That way if NR want to hunt cows they can hunt on private.

I am also surprised that so many people drew special tags, especially archery tags, and hunted OTC units. I like the changes for this yr addressing that.

I think the pick your Region/district is an eventuality. I would like to see NR pressure be addressed this way first, using Idaho model, before residents, but am certain it will happen at some point for residents as well. Without caps on Regions/district tags I dont know it would affect pressure much, say in R3. It would likely make pressure much worse in areas.

Finally, I think we need to adjust our season lengths here and a larger break between archery and rifle with a private land only cow season is an appropriate first step.

 

[MT257]

Yea, the B tag thing is murky. Certainly a ton of NR utilize them to go hunting. I think instead of doing away with NR B tags we should cap public land B tags at a lower level @ special draw and have private land only B tags that are uncapped. That way if NR want to hunt cows they can hunt on private.

I am also surprised that so many people drew special tags, especially archery tags, and hunted OTC units. I like the changes for this yr addressing that.

I think the pick your Region/district is an eventuality. I would like to see NR pressure be addressed this way first, using Idaho model, before residents, but am certain it will happen at some point for residents as well. Without caps on Regions/district tags I dont know it would affect pressure much, say in R3. It would likely make pressure much worse in areas.

Finally, I think we need to adjust our season lengths here and a larger break between archery and rifle with a private land only cow season is an appropriate first step.

I’ll agree for the most part. The b tag otc is like you said murky at best. If a NR wants to hunt elk it either comes from a limited pool that are allowed on public or make the otc good for only private land. NR will be addressed imo before reduction of resident opportunity- how will be the million dollar question. I think it would also be beneficial to get rid of all the additional ways to give out tags. Get rid of the come home to hunt option as well as NR college tag packet. I’d bet there’s a fair number of students in Missoula and Bozeman taking advantage of this cause it’s the cool thing to do with your buddies in college. If they wanna hunt they should prioritize and apply just like every other NR.

 

[S.Clancy]

I’ll agree for the most part. The b tag otc is like you said murky at best. If a NR wants to hunt elk it either comes from a limited pool that are allowed on public or make the otc good for only private land. NR will be addressed imo before reduction of resident opportunity- how will be the million dollar question. I think it would also be beneficial to get rid of all the additional ways to give out tags. Get rid of the come home to hunt option as well as NR college tag packet. I’d bet there’s a fair number of students in Missoula and Bozeman taking advantage of this cause it’s the cool thing to do with your buddies in college. If they wanna hunt they should prioritize and apply just like every other NR.

I'll have to look again but I think the come home to hunt hasn't sold out in recent years. I cant remember off the top of my head what the cap is either, 500 maybe? I don't know how I feel about those. It makes sense to include them in the total of 17000 with a sub quota. CH2H tags that arent claimed go into NR draw. That way we prevent the upward creep in NR tag allocations you speak to.

 

[MT257]

I'll have to look again but I think the come home to hunt hasn't sold out in recent years. I cant remember off the top of my head what the cap is either, 500 maybe? I don't know how I feel about those. It makes sense to include them in the total of 17000 with a sub quota. CH2H tags that arent claimed go into NR draw. That way we prevent the upward creep in NR tag allocations you speak to.

The come home to hunt may not sell out or count against the 17000 cap. They are residents in other states. Let’s say 400 people get it that is still 400 people in the woods adding to the crowding issue that is trying to be resolved.

 

[S.Clancy]

The come home to hunt may not sell out or count against the 17000 cap. They are residents in other states. Let’s say 400 people get it that is still 400 people in the woods adding to the crowding issue that is trying to be resolved.

I think we are in agreeance here, they should be included in the 17000.

 

[cgasner1]

That come home to hunt should at bare minimum be part of the non resident tags. Those people chose to leave this state just the same as I chose to come to it they shouldn’t be able to just come back to hunt


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[doc holiday13]

No thank you. I prefer having both options, bow and rifle.

There could probably be a good compromise. In VA we can hunt whitetail with bow, muzzleloader, and rifle/shotgun. HOWEVER if you want to hunt archery and/or muzzleloader you'd need to buy an archery permit and a muzzleloader permit accordingly.

Most people don't want to dish out for 3 permits

 

[Pikespeak]

Funny this subject came up, this issue is what caused me to stop listening to the Meat Eater Cal Callahan podcast.

He markets his podcast as this educational data driven environmental podcasts that people are turning to for info. However, when it comes to issues that impact him he provides no info on the opposing side and tells people to harass politicians in support of his opinion.

I don’t care about Montana hunting because I don’t live there, however, him coming on and telling people to call senators and giving 0 explanation of the opposing data left a really bad taste in my mouth. He’s done this on several subjects.

Also, there’s huge irony that hunting media has caused the massive increase in crowding and here he is griping about the consequences while being the problem.

 

[Beaveralum]

I’ll be the first to admit I know nothing about Montana’s current seasons, but it sounds like your moving to similar model to what we have in Oregon. And as a shock to no one, it sucks.

Compartmentalizing the seasons does not alleviate pressure, it just shifts it around and gives less opportunity for everyone. Here (speaking generally) we are split rifle/bow, then we are split into draw/general season (east/west).

What i’ve noticed is that people who don’t draw their preferred rifle tag, generally default to archery because it is a more open general season (more cereal seasons available vs rifle).

I’m sure some would disagree, but personally when I see ODFW and any other state game department adding regulations, it generally means reduced opportunity for the hunter buying the tag.

 

[sasquatch]

I like idahos system with A/B tags


Seems to be the best middle grounds.


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[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Until MT implements mandatory harvest reporting, all of this is just a fart in the wind. They don't currently have the data required to make management decisions in the first place.

As a NR to MT that enjoys guaranteed whitetail tags back home in Iowa, I gotta side with R having first choice and largest say in new regs. However, until the state actually collects the data required to make real decisions, it's all just pandering to one special interest or another. Sad.

 

[Deadfall]

Splitting and shortening the rifle seasons to 10 days, one early and one late, and pick your season would greatly improve hunting during the rifle seasons.

I wonder what they will do with the new muzzleloader season?

Negative

 

[Firestone]

Negative

Agreed. Look at colorado, lots of short seasons and it is a warzone in every season. It will be the same for montana. More pressure and less opportunity.

 

[Hippie Steve]

Pick between archery OR rifle. Not both.

Thoughts?

GoHunt article copied below:

Do you prefer hunting elk with a bow or with a rifle? If you hunt them in Montana, you might have to choose as the state’s Elk Management Citizen Advisory Group recently recommended a new requirement: make hunters choose between archery and rifle seasons to help “reduce crowding and pressure on public lands,” according to the Independent Record.
The 12-member advisory committee was formed this year by Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks (MTFWP) Director Hank Woresch after controversies with the current season setting process and discussion over how to handle elk herds that are over objective and difficult to hunt because of the lack of public access. The committee was tasked with “developing elk management recommendations with a focus on improving relationships between public hunters, landowners and the department,” according to the Independent Record.
The committee knew that this new requirement would be somewhat controversial because the current process allows hunters to purchase both a general elk license and an archery stamp, resulting in an almost 11-week long hunting season with both seasons combined. If the recommendation is approved, those who previously hunted archery and general season will now have to decide which one they prefer, losing out on additional opportunity.
Along with the weapon requirement, the committee also recommended changing seasons to help with “overcrowding and hunting pressure on public land bull elk,” according to the members. The proposed change would have the archery season run for five weeks, beginning on Sept. 1 with a two- to three-week break before the start of the general season in late October. However, during that break, a private land cow elk hunt could be held.
While many supported the recommendations, those who did not say it would only divide hunters and possibly add more pressure to deer if hunters choose to focus on deer when they can’t hunt elk. Others like committee member Scott Van Dyken say it would just decrease the number of bowhunters, not actually do a thing about crowding during rifle season.
“I don’t see this working to relieve rifle pressure,” said Van Dyken.
Regardless, before anything can move beyond a recommendation, the committee wants MFWP to gather additional data and also poll hunters to see which weapon most would choose if they had to only choose one.
Also under scrutiny is the current shoulder seasons, which have been held over the last few years to help manage elk in over-objective districts. The committee says that these additional seasons have “mixed results” and recommended changes so that they can “be used more strategically,” according to the Independent Record. Specifically, the committee is recommending that shoulder seasons not begin until two weeks after general season, adding a shoulder season between archery and rifle season and only use shoulder seasons on private land.
“The intent is to reassess, not do away with (shoulder seasons),” said committee member Race King.
The elk working group will continue to meet twice per month as they work through additional recommendations. Stay tuned to GOHUNT for further updates.

As a former employee of FWP, as a Wildlife Technician, I would agree the department needs more field personal specifically involved with deer/elk. The department needs to manage the state's districts at a smaller scale than it currently does and I believe that should be the first implementation of any new plan. I also believe that tag allocation should be distributed by a specific district (unit) with a tag quota. The tags should be labeled as OTC General Limited and Limited Entry Permit (draw). Limited needs to be implemented on all tags to cap NR at the 10% and that's it, no more up to 10% or sell more than 10%. Each district, based on biological objectives, gets a tag allocation of a set number of tags, NR get 10% of those within that hunt district and the rest goes to residents. If hunters want to turn their tags back in before the season, they may do so and get a refund, NO POINTS. You can have another sale period for leftover tags before the season to first come-first serve resident or NR. This should apply to both deer/elk. I believe there needs to be a muzzleloader September hunt for bull elk, both OTC and LE tags (this will give hunters options and reduce pressure off other seasons while increasing bull harvest numbers). ALL bull tags sold should receive a cow tag for FREE or a really inexpensive cost (cow harvest reduces elk numbers). The Private Land issue goes deeper into private property laws and laws need to be address/rewritten to better manage a PUBLIC resource on private property. I believe landowner participation/cooperation has been reached and laws need to be changed to address this issue. The deer/elk management plans should be revisited every 3 years at a minimum with changing conditions, both with habitat loss and human overcrowding in our state. I also believe we need to reduce incidental harvest and separate the deer/elk seasons (deer only, elk only). The current regulations and season structure is definitely not sustainable under the current conditions and defiantly needs to be updated at least at a micro level. With the 2023 Legislative session looming and a Republican super majority things are going to get heated. They are going to shape and try and rewrite the state constitution in ways that favor more private land and less public access. This might be the most important year to speak up and push back in favor of what the hunting community wants, public people and its public wildlife. Public pushback in any capacity works. These are my opinions, thanks for letting me share.

 

[Geewhiz]

The thought of choose your weapon makes me sick. The good old days of Montana seams to be coming to an end.