MT Elk Lawsuit

[Gerbdog]

That's my one big fear / concern : Future generations getting the same opportunities to hunt on the public lands i grew up enjoying.

Seems mightily unlikely ill ever end up with a massive ranch under my name in this life, unless i pick up the lucky lottery ticket, which.... i dont buy hardly ever? Cant win if you dont play i suppose...

to the point though... If it wasnt for public land, and a fair shake at tags, i'd never have been able to learn to hunt growing up in small town NM.

Simply put, i grew up poor as dirt, there would have been zero chances anyone in my life would have been able to take me and teach me to hunt even if a bull tag had costed a 1000 bucks that i had to pick up from a private land owner. Toss the idea of spending 20000+ on a bull tag straight out the window... no chance. More spending money then my parents would have when i was growing up over my entire youth likely, not even factoring in i was 1 of 6 kids.

Blah blah, no one cares about the backstory, bottom line: i want future generations to experience hunting and learning in the rocky mountains, no matter what background they got born into.

Hunting should not turn into just an adventure for the wealthy, i believe its built into human DNA and should be something that everyone can pursue if they have the desire to do so.

Getting off the soap box now.

 

[KHNC]

Cant find an elk on public in the NW section of Montana, yet certain private land areas in the state have 1000's of them with no hunting access. Interesting management strategy.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Cant find an elk on public in the NW section of Montana, yet certain private land areas in the state have 1000's of them with no hunting access. Interesting management strategy.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the story!!! Seen it firsthand last fall. Yes, I got my bull, but it was 1 of 2 elk even seen in 7 days by 6 hunters and guides in the Bob. Ridiculous...

IMO only, there is no legitimate management strategy in MT when they don't even track how many are killed. I drove out of there with a rack hanging out the back of my truck and a paper tag that I didn't have to report or check. How does FWP even determine objectives when they are missing a critical data point?

 

[Roam_USA]

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the story!!! Seen it firsthand last fall. Yes, I got my bull, but it was 1 of 2 elk even seen in 7 days by 6 hunters and guides in the Bob. Ridiculous...

IMO only, there is no legitimate management strategy in MT when they don't even track how many are killed. I drove out of there with a rack hanging out the back of my truck and a paper tag that I didn't have to report or check. How does FWP even determine objectives when they are missing a critical data point?

Unfortunately they aren’t up to date on the other states that require mandatory harvest reports. They’ll call you in the Spring and ask about your success. It looks like a spam call to most so it gets ignored.

Simple. F-ing. Fix……. Require that all tag holders report their harvests or they simple can’t purchase a tag the following year until they correctly do so. Bam… fixed the issue. It’s astonishing how the Montana FWP admin gets anything productive done. Montana Biologists aside, and game wardens, these folks do their best imo.

 

[bsnedeker]

Unfortunately they aren’t up to date on the other states that require mandatory harvest reports. They’ll call you in the Spring and ask about your success. It looks like a spam call to most so it gets ignored.

Simple. F-ing. Fix……. Require that all tag holders report their harvests or they simple can’t purchase a tag the following year until they correctly do so. Bam… fixed the issue. It’s astonishing how the Montana FWP admin gets anything productive done. Montana Biologists aside, and game wardens, these folks do their best imo.

Oh dude, it's way worse than that! Even when they DO call they only call about specific things.

Last year they called me after I had filled a B tag, but was unsuccessful with my general tag. When they called they only asked me about the General, when I told them I had filled a B tag he literally told me he didn't care because that wasn't on his sheet.

This year they called me after I killed a bull but when I talked to them they told it was a "elk and wolf" survey, and I was selected for the wolf part so they didn't mark down that I had successfully killed a bull.

So yeah, I've killed elk the last two season and answered the phone calls but they STILL didn't count my kills in their results.

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[Wapiti406]

Every hunter in Montana can agree that there is entirely way too many elk in the state. Every biologist knows that the most efficient way to reduce herd numbers is to kill bulls. And everyone knows that allowing hunters to harvest cows on private land between Labor Day and Thanksgiving would definitely be the least effective method of removing large numbers of elk from the agriculture land being effected. Luckily UPOM is taking a stand to look out for all property owners of Montana, and not just the select few who benefit from selling guided hunts, or nonresidents who own 560 square miles of land in the state.

We need UPOM to keep fighting to remove these 5 to 10 year old bulls so that the elk populations can return to objective. These older bulls are definitely the locusts and grass hoppers of the units where special permits are issued.

If they could also lengthen the shoulder season to every day from then end of rifle season to the beginning of archery and open damage hunts up to bulls, that would be cool too.

 

[mtnkid85]

Unfortunately they aren’t up to date on the other states that require mandatory harvest reports. They’ll call you in the Spring and ask about your success. It looks like a spam call to most so it gets ignored.

Simple. F-ing. Fix……. Require that all tag holders report their harvests or they simple can’t purchase a tag the following year until they correctly do so. Bam… fixed the issue. It’s astonishing how the Montana FWP admin gets anything productive done. Montana Biologists aside, and game wardens, these folks do their best imo.

Mandatory reporting is here with the new etags.

The biggest anti hunting group in the state right now is United Property Owners of Montana. They have constantly advocated for anti access, anti hunting laws and misleadingly state they represent Montana land owners. These clowns are making real progress in turning Montana into there version of the Kings Europe.
Everyone likes to bitch and moan about Footloose, but they don't hold a candle against UPOM.

 

[bsnedeker]

Mandatory reporting is here with the new etags.

The biggest anti hunting group in the state right now is United Property Owners of Montana. They have constantly advocated for anti access, anti hunting laws and misleadingly state they represent Montana land owners. These clowns are making real progress in turning Montana into there version of the Kings Europe.
Everyone likes to bitch and moan about Footloose, but they don't hold a candle against UPOM.

Where are you seeing it being mandatory? etags are completely optional for now.

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[mtnkid85]

Every hunter in Montana can agree that there is entirely way too many elk in the state. Every biologist knows that the most efficient way to reduce herd numbers is to kill bulls. And everyone knows that allowing hunters to harvest cows on private land between Labor Day and Thanksgiving would definitely be the least effective method of removing large numbers of elk from the agriculture land being effected. Luckily UPOM is taking a stand to look out for all property owners of Montana, and not just the select few who benefit from selling guided hunts, or nonresidents who own 560 square miles of land in the state.

We need UPOM to keep fighting to remove these 5 to 10 year old bulls so that the elk populations can return to objective. These older bulls are definitely the locusts and grass hoppers of the units where special permits are issued.

If they could also lengthen the shoulder season to every day from then end of rifle season to the beginning of archery and open damage hunts up to bulls, that would be cool too.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

 

[mtnkid85]

Where are you seeing it being mandatory? etags are completely optional for now.

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You are correct, e tags are optional. But for those who choose to use the etag system, comes automatic reporting of the harvest.

 

[Roam_USA]

You are correct, e tags are optional. But for those who choose to use the etag system, comes automatic reporting of the harvest.

I just wish it was mandatory for everyone before they bought the following year license. For those that can’t access a computer… find one, adjust, it’s the future and it’s not going away. The paper tag is dead for the right reasons like this.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Oh dude, it's way worse than that! Even when they DO call they only call about specific things.

Last year they called me after I had filled a B tag, but was unsuccessful with my general tag. When they called they only asked me about the General, when I told them I had filled a B tag he literally told me he didn't care because that wasn't on his sheet.

This year they called me after I killed a bull but when I talked to them they told it was a "elk and wolf" survey, and I was selected for the wolf part so they didn't mark down that I had successfully killed a bull.

So yeah, I've killed elk the last two season and answered the phone calls but they STILL didn't count my kills in their results.

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Mind blowing... Not "my job" or on my "checklist".

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I just wish it was mandatory for everyone before they bought the following year license. For those that can’t access a computer… find one, adjust, it’s the future and it’s not going away. The paper tag is dead for the right reasons like this.

Paper tags have been dead in Iowa for deer and turkeys for at least 15 years. All tags printed from a vendor (convenience store, Wally World, etc...) or bought online and mailed to your home have a phone number to call the automated system to report harvests. For the last several years you've been able to record online, and most recently you can actually report via SMS text messages. For MT, and any other state for that matter, to be so far behind is inexcusable if not negligent in 2022. There are penalties for not reporting harvests, but that isn't easy to enforce, and the IADNR counts on sportsman to do the right thing.

 

[Wyobohunter]

You know that movie's about MT right? Cry me a river we took the direct hit you just got grazed Anyways the movie is a drop in the bucket compared to the pandemic boom, and the Yellowstone series I guess? (never seen it)

Yes. I know it’s about MT. I actually lived in MT not long after it came out in theaters. The West Yellowstone fly shops were booming. My family is originally from MT. Matter of fact, my great grandparents were living in West way back. My great grandfather helped build many of the roadside rock walls in the park. I was born in Butte and come from a family of copper miners. Though we moved to WY when I was little I spent most summers either in Butte, Elk Park (outside of Butte), West Yellowstone or up at Canyon Ferry (outside of Helena).

I was saying blame it (the movie) for the sudden popularity of your state… at the time. I suppose that was a little while ago and the comment was kinda dated.

 

[Roughwater]

Wow. that's certainly some pictures of a bunch of rich corrupt misfits. Oh sorry, they are mostly politicians so that figures.

 

[S.Clancy]

Mind blowing... Not "my job" or on my "checklist".

In their defense, they are likely doing "randomized sampling" so taking data from outside their specific parameters would skew their modeling.

Still, frustating in a day and age where we dont have to model harvest data, we can actually get all the data.

 

[Gutshot007]

So I'm a little confused here. The state of Montana's elk numbers are almost non-existent in the northwest part of the state. In the central portion way over management goal and lots of inaccessible private land. Does that mean I can take ladder and find a corner of a fence on the Wilke ranch and cross there and I'm good if I have a receipt proving that the ladder was purchased in Wyoming. This is legal right? (As long as I'm not from California )

 

[Gutshot007]

Can one you you more intelligent guys without 6 toes break down what this lawsuit is about. Please correct me if I'm wrong ( I know it will be with TLC) about the big picture. So right now when I go to Montana's elk site to research they have maps describing management objectives . Some are wildly over goal. When one looks to these areas closely it's largely private land/ranches. These same folks are complaining about too many elk on their property and damage caused. Is the state offering the help of hunters to trespass to get numbers down ? The landowners response is no way just give us a stack of tags and we'll deal with it through various options. Landowner tags, guide tags, basically tags for sale . Is this the only thing the land owners are offering for a solution?

 

[BuzzH]

Can one you you more intelligent guys without 6 toes break down what this lawsuit is about. Please correct me if I'm wrong ( I know it will be with TLC) about the big picture. So right now when I go to Montana's elk site to research they have maps describing management objectives . Some are wildly over goal. When one looks to these areas closely it's largely private land/ranches. These same folks are complaining about too many elk on their property and damage caused. Is the state offering the help of hunters to trespass to get numbers down ? The landowners response is no way just give us a stack of tags and we'll deal with it through various options. Landowner tags, guide tags, basically tags for sale . Is this the only thing the land owners are offering for a solution?

I can give you the quick rundown.

Way back in the 90's the FWP came up with an idea to develop an elk management plan (EMP).

In that plan there was supposed to be input from sportsmen, landowners, and other interests. Long story short, sportsmen got rolled and elk objective numbers were set very low and based largely on landowner tolerance. There was an exemption for excluding elk from the objectives if those elk were being harbored. To my knowledge that has been ignored and used only once.

Things sort of just rolled around until Debby Barrett (R) Dillon, along with the R dominated State Legislature passed a law requiring the FWP to hold elk at the objective numbers found in the EMP.

The first response from the FWP was to just issue a boatload of cow permits in areas where elk needed to be killed. That worked fine in areas with lots of public land, but in areas where elk could harbor on inaccessible private, the elk just continued to expand. That "management" style was a failure as all it did was kill off and greatly reduce the elk numbers on public lands, since the cow tags were not limited to private land. In other words, the wrong elk were being killed for decades, all the while the elk on private continued to keep the unit wide/herd units above objective. Along the way was a "revision" to the EMP that didn't do much.

Then there were things tried like depredation hunts, some success some failures. All the while the interest in elk hunting continued to expand, Montana's population continued to increase. The elk on public continued to also get pounded via MT's traditional 6 weeks of archery and 5 weeks of rifle hunting.

The next wise idea was to invoke shoulder seasons on a "trial basis" in a few areas to see if pounding on elk on private land for 6 months would work. Before the ink was dry on the proposals, and before any data was gathered on whether the seasons would work, it was expanded to 44 units across the State. Sportsmen were lied to and in spite of fierce opposition, the shoulder seasons continued.

The MTFWP has refused to recognize that you can't continue to manage elk the exact same way now, as they did in 1957. The same general season structure as when my Dad started hunting in the 50's. They also don't recognize that public land elk have taken an absolute whooping as technology in archery, rifle, backpacks, GPS, etc. etc. No adjustment to season length, or the ability for 130,000 residents to purchase OTC general tags and at least another 17K+ NR's to do the same.

I could see the decimation taking place on public lands. Elk numbers plummeted through the early 2000's on public land, and sky rocketed on private. Of course wolves, bears, and everything else was blamed, but its human hunting that caused a majority of the declines combined with some habitat loss, and of course also some increased predation that didn't help.

I killed a nice 6 point, from a herd a small herd of bulls in 2012 on a NR license. I had hunted that country every year since 1979, and I know that country and the elk there better than anyone alive. I knew the bulls I was killing in the 2000's, was not killing the surplus, it was devastating what little was left. I decided I would not kill another bull in Montana until things changed. I felt like I was killing the last buffalo when I killed that bull and wished I hadn't. I wrote a letter to the FWP Director, the Governor, and local Biologist explaining all of what was happening and had happened. Didn't hear a word back.

Nothing has changed since, and now the UPOM, has filed a lawsuit since the FWP is, in fact, breaking the law because they can't hold elk at objective numbers.

The human population has continued to increase, elk hunting on public has continued to suck, and management has not changed a bit since the 1950's.

That's how this mess has happened...and there's one political party that has caused it all.

 

[cgasner1]

Since most these ranches won’t even open up to let people kill cows during the shoulder season it makes this a very hard sell for people. They probably are having quite the issue with the elk but they aren’t allowing sportsman’s to help. If they wanna outfit or whatever that is the right of the land owner if the issue is as bad as they say I feel like they would be much more willing to work with the public


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