Muzzy primers and inconsistent groups

[Sled]

After years of thinking about ML season I've finally picked it back up. When I used to hunt ML it was in the whitetail woods with a 45cal and caps. Now 5 years after buying a 50cal traditions vortek I'm putting it to use and finding difficulty grouping.

First off, I'm using 100gr of triple 7 pellets with fed 209 primers. I've tried Barnes tmz and tez with some real difficulty loading and poor grouping. After switching to some powerbelts I've remedied the difficulty loading but not the random groupings. That leads me to believe my federal 209 primers are a bit too hot and possibly pushing the projectile before full ignition of the pellets.

Any other ideas?
I'd like to try some triple 7 primers to rule this out but I'm not finding the locally and a bit leery of the sites that say they are in stock. Are standard Winchester 209 primers worth trying instead? Anybody have a lead on some muzzy primers in stock somewhere?

Thanks in advance

 

[5MilesBack]

I'd probably try different weights of loose powder instead of pellets first.

 

[Fordguy]

I've always used federal 209a primers since moving to the more modern muzzleloaders. Never had an issue with them. Using from a 20 year old box of primers right now. All good, decent groups, even with powerbelts (trying to use a bunch left over from years ago). However I am using loose powder - I start at 80 grains and work up to find the measure of powder that works best with the bullet type and weight. Sometimes a 10 grain difference in powder makes a huge difference in accuracy. I've found this to be true across a variety of loose powders. Blackhorn, 777, pyrodex (which I stopped using as long time ago) etc. Finding the right combination is part of the fun.

 

[cobbc03]

Doubt its the primers. Muzzleloaders are finicky. Try white hot powder and several different powerbelts. I use whitehots and copper or aerolite powerbelts, but if I switch to lead powerbelts its extremely inaccurate. Same goes for different powders.

 

[Corey Paulsen (teamkabob)]

What muzzleloader?

 

[Sled]

What muzzleloader?

Traditions vortek ultralite 50cal

 

[Sled]

i still have an unopened bottle of BH209. would this and some harvester crush rib sabots get my barnes shooting well and loading like the powerbelts? will i need another breech plug to reliably ignite the BH209?

 

[Pickettpuncher]

First mistake is using a traditions. Now, for the real problems and solutions. Your primer is way too hot for the powder. You need a muzzleloader 209. Yes, they make them, but may be hard to find. Personally, I’d ditch the 777 and get some blackhorn209. Use regular primers with blackhorn. I’d also ditch the powerbelts. Most people have little trouble with getting them to group, but there’s story and story about poor blood trails and lost deer with them. Barnes is where it’s at if you want something readily available at most local stores. Now, if you wanna stay with 777, change primers, but go to the loose powder. Tailor your loads to the gun. You can’t with pellets. Are you breaking the pellets, or crushing them? Seating the bullet enough? Pellets are great when they work, but you’re stuck at 100 or 150 grain loads. And try those harvester sabots with the Barnes!

 

[Sled]

well, i'm short on time but i think i've got something that will work for now. first thing i did was drop back to a standard winchester primer. then, i tried BH209 and it worked but i didn't see any incredible gains in cleanliness or precision. that led me back to 2 pellets of 777 and power belts. that dropped me down to 3.5" groups @100yds and minute of elk shooting out to about 150 at most. i'm optimistic that as the barrel breaks in i'll be able to shoot barnes in the future with the factory sabots. until then i'll try to get my hands on the harvester crush ribs in the off season. since my last hunt of the year starts wednesday, these power belts through the lungs will have to do. i'm a big fan of straight broadside lung shots with bullets that don't stay together well. hopefully these will do the trick on a trophy cow or a spike.

thanks for all the replies

 

[Bountyhunter]

Your problem is 777 and regular 209 primers. They are too powerful and raise the bullet and pellets before good ignition. If you stay with 777 you must use 1/4 power muzzleloader primers. Better yet switch to blackhorn 209 and standard 209 primers

 

[GMB54-120]

I have heard this TOO POWERFUL myth so many times it makes my head spin. What a load of bull. More NMLRA inline events have been won with standard or 209 Mags and LRMPs than any other ignition source.

Why is a mag primer just fine igniting a harder to ignite powder like BH209 but TOO POWERFUL to ignite Triple7 without moving the sabot off the powder?.....Its total hogwash. A gimick to lighten your wallet and fill theirs.

The ONLY thing a reduced power 209 primer does for Triple7 is reduce the crud ring slightly.

 

[GMB54-120]

The problem lies with the pellets and here is why.
Not every gun likes 2 or 3 pellets
Pellets vary by weight a fair amount
Pellets crack or chip easily. Especially when you got a crud ring to deal with because you didnt swab after the last shot.

Pellets store poorly. Left in the factory box they begin to age and suck up moisture the minute they leave the factory....You must seal the entire box in something if you plan on saving them from year to year. Its the same stuff they use to make Triple7 loose and you sure as heck would not store your loose powder like that would you?...In a box that seals worse than a ziplock bag.

Do yourself a huge favor and ditch the pellets. Get some loose Triple7 and deal with the crud ring or learn the ropes on using BH209. Roughly 80gr-85gr of BH209 by volume will give you the same speed as 2 pellets. Yeah it cost a bit but not all that bad when comparing speed for the amount you need to get that speed.