Native Corporation Closes Access to Copper River Bison

[MattB]

This is a frankly laughable argument. To say that non-residents contribute more to the Alaska economy because you vacation here maybe once a year? I moved here, put money into this economy every day, take dozens of trips a year to remote little towns to hunt and fish. Not to mention pay taxes, own a home here, fly (more than once) to and from the lower 48 to visit family, all of that. Sorry your tag costs a little more and you have to travel twice to get an Alaska hunt in. But for those of us that live here, we contribute a lot more than you do. That’s why state residency perks are a thing.

You are not understanding. On balance, the marginal contribution to the Alaska economy from a non-resident going on a given hunting trip will be greater than an Alaska resident.

 

[207-12A]

You are not understanding. On balance, the marginal contribution to the Alaska economy from a non-resident going on a given hunting trip will be greater than an Alaska resident.

That is true. It’s also an extremely shallow slice of the impact that sportsmen have on a given area. To say that we should only view our contribution within the left and right limits of a hunt trip is focusing on a tree and missing the woods.

 

[WRO]

But shouldn’t that be ones own personal choice/risk?

Not when the state gets stuck paying for rescue operations.

I used to live in Alaska, that being said look at all the dipshits that come to Colorado to hunt elk and completely shit all over themselves, now put them in a place where they can't walk to a road and get out. The chugach, Wrangell, etc are no joke.

I'd love to come back and do diy goats, sheep, or , but I can completely see the states point.

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[tdhanses]

Not when the state gets stuck paying for rescue operations.

I used to live in Alaska, that being said look at all the dipshits that come to Colorado to hunt elk and completely shit all over themselves, now put them in a place where they can't walk to a road and get out. The chugach, Wrangell, etc are no joke.

I'd love to come back and do diy goats, sheep, or , but I can completely see the states point.

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Why not charge a SAR fee with all hunting and fishing licenses similar to CO if costs for the service are the main concern?

Is it that they would be constantly rescuing dozens of people daily? I can see where the guide would keep many in check but I can’t see a large number of individuals charting a flight in with zero clue, but many people do shock me with their stupidity So maybe it would be bad.

 

[Marbles]

Why not charge a SAR fee with all hunting and fishing licenses similar to CO if costs for the service are the main concern?

Is it that they would be constantly rescuing dozens of people daily? I can see where the guide would keep many in check but I can’t see a large number of individuals charting a flight in with zero clue, but many people do shock me with their stupidity So maybe it would be bad.

1 rescue a day would break the state. We are not talking about EMS calls, but in most cases operations involving dozens of people, who many times have to be transported in and housed depending on the area. Those people have other essential tasks they cannot perform while in the field if they are professonals, if volunteer then they are giving up time at work or with families to help others.

If the threat to life is sever enough, than the Coast Guard or Air Force PJ's might contribute a helo with hoist capabilities. Any time you put a helo in the air you are talking a significant increase in risk to rescuers and $25,000 an hour bill to the Federal tax payer if an Airforce Pave Hawk, $9,000 per hour if a Coast Guard Dolphin. If near Anchorage, and distress criteria is not met, if available ot will be a State Trooper bird or LifeMed. LifeMed will send you a $50,000 or so bill and most likely drop you off at an ED where you will get another bill. LifeMed and the Troopers lack hoist capabilities, so if there is not a suitable LZ you are stuck being walked out (sometimes on a litter). If the weather is bad, you had better be able to survive or it will just be a body recovery operation once conditions become safe for rescuers.

Of course, most of the above is similar in some locations in the lower 48, other than remoteness. Alaska is a wild place and nothing south of the Canadian boarder compares in North America, and that includes the Bob Marshall. The furthest you can get from a road in the lower 48 is 21.7 miles in Yellow Stone. I can achieve that without leaving the city limits of Anchorage, though not if we consider navigable water as roads.

I know several non-residents get lost following techniques (like following a river) that general work well in the lower 48, but are unlikely to get you closer to civilization in AK.

Unfortunately I don't have data to say if the guide requirement is valid based on SAR costs. I guess the argument is that Brown Bear is a dangerous animal, and sheep and goats put people in harsher terrain. Which is why for US citizens the guide requirement does not apply to all big game. Non-resident aliens need a guide to hunt any big game, so it could be worse.

If SAR was the driving force behind the guide requirement I would expect a permitting system like that for climbing Denali where prior experience was taken into acout for resident and non-resident alike. However, in the absence of data, I could be wrong about that assumption.

 

[tdhanses]

1 rescue a day would break the state. We are not talking about EMS calls, but in most cases operations involving dozens of people, who many times have to be transported in and housed depending on the area. Those people have other essential tasks they cannot perform while in the field if they are professonals, if volunteer then they are giving up time at work or with families to help others.

If the threat to life is sever enough, than the Coast Guard or Air Force PJ's might contribute a helo with hoist capabilities. Any time you put a helo in the air you are talking a significant increase in risk to rescuers and $25,000 an hour bill to the Federal tax payer if an Airforce Pave Hawk, $9,000 per hour if a Coast Guard Dolphin. If near Anchorage, and distress criteria is not met, if available ot will be a State Trooper bird or LifeMed. LifeMed will send you a $50,000 or so bill and most likely drop you off at an ED where you will get another bill. LifeMed and the Troopers lack hoist capabilities, so if there is not a suitable LZ you are stuck being walked out (sometimes on a litter). If the weather is bad, you had better be able to survive or it will just be a body recovery operation once conditions become safe for rescuers.

Of course, most of the above is similar in some locations in the lower 48, other than remoteness. Alaska is a wild place and nothing south of the Canadian boarder compares in North America, and that includes the Bob Marshall. The furthest you can get from a road in the lower 48 is 21.7 miles in Yellow Stone. I can achieve that without leaving the city limits of Anchorage, even if we consider navigable water as roads.

I know several non-residents get lost following techniques (like following a river) that general work well in the lower 48, but are unlikely to get you closer to civilization in AK.

Unfortunately I don't have data to say if the guide requirement is valid based on SAR costs. I guess the argument is that Brown Bear is a dangerous animal, and sheep and goats put people in harsher terrain. Which is why for US citizens the guide requirement does not apply to all big game. Non-resident aliens need a guide to hunt any big game, so it could be worse.

If SAR was the driving force behind the guide requirement I would expect a permitting system like that for climbing Denali where prior experience was taken into acout for resident and non-resident alike. However, in the absence of data, I could be wrong about that assumption.

How is that different then any other states operation other then zero coast guard or military around to assist. Where I hunt in CO 2 days in a row people were life flighted off the mountain.

Now the obvious first, the general area was only a 4 mile hike for rescue crews, the helos couldn’t land and the individuals had to be carried to a location they could land.

If I remember correctly when Becca Moffat had her ride while goat hunting, no SAR guys came in, just the helo. Where at a minimum there were 6 people on the ground and a helo for both instances in CO.

I knew one of the guys that had to be flown out, his medical insurance paid for the helo ride.

Just saying, things could be changed that wouldn’t bankrupt the state, might a person without proper coverage. I alway keep extra insurance for SAR and a Helo ride, it’s cheap compared to the alternative and in the lower 48 you may or may not get a bill but SAR said unless your next to a road that an ambulance can get to expect a helo ride If you can’t walk out and you always get that bill.

I get AK is different but doesn’t mean it’s the optimal setup.

I doubt SAR was the driving force, just a way to protect an industry similar to WY requiring it for wilderness.

 

[Marbles]

How is that different then any other states operation other then zero coast guard or military around to assist. Where I hunt in CO 2 days in a row people were life flighted off the mountain.

Now the obvious first, the general area was only a 4 mile hike for rescue crews, the helos couldn’t land and the individuals had to be carried to a location they could land.

If I remember correctly when Becca Moffat had her ride while goat hunting, no SAR guys came in, just the helo. Where at a minimum there were 6 people on the ground and a helo for both instances in CO.

I knew one of the guys that had to be flown out, his medical insurance paid for the helo ride.

Just saying, things could be changed that wouldn’t bankrupt the state, might a person without proper coverage. I alway keep extra insurance for SAR and a Helo ride, it’s cheap compared to the alternative and in the lower 48 you may or may not get a bill but SAR said unless your next to a road that an ambulance can get to expect a helo ride If you can’t walk out and you always get that bill.

I get AK is different but doesn’t mean it’s the optimal setup.

I doubt SAR was the driving force, just a way to protect an industry similar to WY requiring it for wilderness.

See this line

Of course, most of the above is similar in some locations in the lower 48, other than remoteness.

Also, Colorado has a population 8 times that of Alaska for a land mass 6 times smaller.

The massive population and limited physical area in Colorado can support private rotorwing operations. Alaska simply lacks the baseline demand to suport more than the two private rotor wing aircraft LifMed operates and yhe one Medevac Alaska operates in Dillingham (might be closed down now). Several companies have tried setting up rotor wing medevac operations (most being fixed wing medevac operators like Guardian Flight, or commercial rotor wing operators like TEMSCO) but close them down as they are not sustainable. As far as I'm aware, all other medevac operations in AK are fixed wing (other than the North Slope). Of course, if anyone is aware of other private rotor wing medevac operations in AK please point them out.

The North Slope has rotor wing because the Artic Slope Regional Corporation (one of the Alaska Native corporations) has 2.5 billion in annual revenue due to oil.

North Colorado Med Evac operates 3 rotor wing bases in CO, AirLife Denver operates 3 rotor wing bases in CO (and 1 in Cheyenne, Wyoming), Flight For Life operates 4 rotor wing bases in CO. UCHealth operates 2 rotor wing bases in CO. No point in trying to count more, we already have 13 private rotor wing bases that service CO's 104,185 square miles of land mass compared to 4 for AK's 663,300 square miles of land mass.

By the way, I have worked with EMS in the lower 48 and have a family member that spent almost 20 years as a rotor wing medevac pilot in the lower 48. I have some limited time working with SAR in AK. I certainly am far from an expert in any of it, but I'm also not just Joe Public speculating from a few news stories and I certainly understand the workings of the lower 48 from the perspective of Joe Public as I have lived and worked in 4 of them and traveled to most of the others. I also know that one must be careful even comparing nieghbering states or areas within a state. I have lived in bush Alaska (at least by the definition used by the AK Troopers) as well. Though I would argue the larger communities in SE AK are really bush light.

 

[AlaskaMark]

Update: The F&G Commissioner met with Ahtna and unfortunately this decision to not allow trespass permits on Ahtna lands for the bison hunts will stay in place.

My personal opinion is that this is part and parcel of other hunting and subsistence issues going on in the region with Ahtna that will continue to be difficult to address.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I'd be more likely to be incensed if Alaskans didn't block my access to hunt Sheep, Goat and Griz.

I’d be all about reciprocity by state. Until I can go to the lower 48 and hunt bighorns over the counter I’m 100% ok with non resident Alaskans needing a guide.

There is no reason non resident should be able to come to AK and have the same rights as a resident when Alaskans can’t just go to wyoming or Colorado and hunt the same as residents.

Being a resident of any state has its perks. Some more than others and that is t changing any time soon.

 

[CGSwimmer25]

I’d be all about reciprocity by state. Until I can go to the lower 48 and hunt bighorns over the counter I’m 100% ok with non resident Alaskans needing a guide.

There is no reason non resident should be able to come to AK and have the same rights as a resident when Alaskans can’t just go to wyoming or Colorado and hunt the same as residents.

Being a resident of any state has its perks. Some more than others and that is t changing any time soon.

Agreed


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[Redmammut]

so did you hunt this tag this fall?

 

[dhatter9]

Ahtna still won’t issue these permits. My buddy has the tag this year and couldn’t get one. I’m guessing it’s a closed door at this point.

 

[207-12A]

They haven’t made any indication that the anti-access policy is less than permanent. I think hunters need to continue getting these tags and taking animals. I was able to, have your buddy reach out if he’d like some pointers.