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doc holiday13

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I can't really see the extra 50gr up front making any significant difference besides a longer sight tape.

In recent months, I feel like many have been chasing this "magical" FOC number or want to slap that label on themselves and to no avail really. I'm all for tinkering and trying things out; I get it. But FOC is just really out of control atm in my honest opinion.

I wouldn't disagree. While Ranch Fairy does have valid data to support 800g arrows..... He's on the end of the spectrum that says "if i shoot a cape buffalo with a howitzer, it will die"

My personal experience would say that 500g-600g arrows (for someone my size) is sufficient for everything until I'm going after MASSIVE animals like cape buffalo, hippo, etc..

I have literally 2 arrows left from the dozen I bought 9 years ago and I have 1 useable fixed blade broadhead that isn't broken.. So I'm buying different GPI and brand arrows so I can tinker with a more efficient arrow. I'd like to jump into using the IW wide 150's for white tail and IW single bevel 150's for elk and bear. So now is the time to tinker
 

Mighty Mouse

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Dorge with Firenock has been doing a lot of data crunching on efficiency and how it is affected by FOC. He's mostly finding that after 8-10 percent most arrows are dumping more energy the higher the FOC gets.

I think this has some of the info on the tests. Dorge also has a lecture up on his sight. I believe it is very in depth so be prepared if you choose to watch it. I talked to him on the phone regarding some of this. If I remember correctly he said that a .246 shaft like the Gold Tip Hunter traveling around 280 fps at 8 percent FOC showed the least energy loss across the spectrum. The smaller the arrow diameter, along with increased FOC showed increased loss of energy down range. I believe the different ends of the spectrum was 8 percent all the way up to 45 percent loss. The podcast talks about it, but basically the energy lost is due to torsion. Torsion gets more difficult to control on a small diameter platform, with high speeds, and lots of weight up front. I would also encourage anyone who is interested to call Dorge. He loves talking and will be happy to discuss this with you.
I just listened to that podcast episode and didn't hear Dorge make any specific claims about optimal FOC. He made a general statement that higher FOC can contribute to decreased downrange energy due to excess bending of the shaft, but he didn't quantify the effect. I'll be interested to see the downrange speed data he said he'll be publishing later this month.

It's worth noting that the markedly improved speed/energy retention Dorge claims to observe with his specially designed vanes and shafts is occurring at 315+ fps. He repeated multiple times in that podcast episode that at arrow speeds under 315 fps, the stuff he's talking about doesn't really matter.
 
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ScottP

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Here is what worked for me. I shoot an old Mathews Heli-m 29" draw, with 28.25" arrow length @ ~67lbs draw weight. Years ago, the archery shop set me up with 400 spine arrow and 100gr points, standard inserts (high velocity for sure). I shot many WT deer and one cow elk. In the middle, I swapped from expandable to cut on contact (striker and wac-em) broad heads after a terrible failure with expandable.

I jumped into the heavier arrow world when I decided I wanted a tough and good penetrating arrow for hunting bull elk.

Current setup is Black Eagle Carnivore (.246) 250 spine with 125gr ethics SS inserts and 125gr grizzly stik samurai, they're 552+- gr and I built myself. I got the field point test kit and just shot bare shafts until I found the sweet spot. It's absolutely night and day from my old setup. Both in flight, quietness of the bow, and penetration of arrows into the target.

I shot a bull this year quartering on through the shoulder and it just zipped right through. it was on a bit of a ridge so I was never able to find my arrow despite a 45min search. I think it literally flew across the damn valley.

good luck! it was fun for me to test out all of the combos of weight. I just jumped right into the 250 spine figuring that's what I needed and better to over spine than under.
 

Zac

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I just listened to that podcast episode and didn't hear Dorge make any specific claims about optimal FOC. He made a general statement that higher FOC can contribute to decreased downrange energy due to excess bending of the shaft, but he didn't quantify the effect. I'll be interested to see the downrange speed data he said he'll be publishing later this month.

It's worth noting that the markedly improved speed/energy retention Dorge claims to observe with his specially designed vanes and shafts is occurring at 315+ fps. He repeated multiple times in that podcast episode that at arrow speeds under 315 fps, the stuff he's talking about doesn't really matter.
Could have been during the phone call then, or else a different podcast. I tried the Aerovane II and couldn't get them to stick well on a wrap. Not sure they are ideal for a broadhead anyways. I think they'd be the ticket for 3D.
 

Mighty Mouse

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Could have been during the phone call then, or else a different podcast. I tried the Aerovane II and couldn't get them to stick well on a wrap. Not sure they are ideal for a broadhead anyways. I think they'd be the ticket for 3D.
Did you use a Firenock fletching jig? I'm intrigued by the Aerovane concept and would like to give them a try, but I'm not willing to spend $400 for the jig (which Dorge says is the only jig out there precise enough to properly apply Aerovanes).
 

Billy Goat

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Did you use a Firenock fletching jig? I'm intrigued by the Aerovane concept and would like to give them a try, but I'm not willing to spend $400 for the jig (which Dorge says is the only jig out there precise enough to properly apply Aerovanes).

I haven't messed with aero vanes in years, but it seemed like there use to be a brass shim (tiny square stock) that you could put on the bottom of a bitz clamp to fletch them.

I don't know if that's still an option or not.
 

MattB

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When did people stop "making" arrows and start "building" arrows? Or do you make arrows and build arrow system? I can't keep up....
 

Zac

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Did you use a Firenock fletching jig? I'm intrigued by the Aerovane concept and would like to give them a try, but I'm not willing to spend $400 for the jig (which Dorge says is the only jig out there precise enough to properly apply Aerovanes).
Yeah I use the Firenock jig. They are supposed to stick amazing so I don't know what I did wrong. I used wraps cause I was just testing. Maybe they'd stick better to carbon🤷. People that do shoot them say that they are able to use a faster tape across the board when they switch to them. Shouldn't really be any drag at all your supposed to fletch them totally straight.
 

5MilesBack

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When did people stop "making" arrows and start "building" arrows? Or do you make arrows and build arrow system? I can't keep up....
Manufacturers make shafts, vanes, etc..........and then someone (end user or manufacturers) build the arrows (or......puts all the components together). When there's cutting and squaring, and attaching, and inserting, are you making or building?
 

Billy Goat

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Manufacturers make shafts, vanes, etc..........and then someone (end user or manufacturers) build the arrows (or......puts all the components together). When there's cutting and squaring, and attaching, and inserting, are you making or building?

I call it assembling.


What gets me are the " Long Range Builds". Where someone puts a scope on a factory rifle and it's considered "built". Sometimes they put a new stock on it too, likely, frequently without bedding it.
I call that assembling as well.
 

Button

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I call it assembling.


What gets me are the " Long Range Builds". Where someone puts a scope on a factory rifle and it's considered "built". Sometimes they put a new stock on it too, likely, frequently without bedding it.
I call that assembling as well.
I’m going to build a new fishing reel by spooling it with some new braid, it might even go on a different rod ;)
 

Button

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So what's a rebuild?
A build that’s being built again?

Trying to determine which route to go for next arrow assembly/build/construction/fabrication. Most likely going with rampages, axis, or rip tko’s in a 300 spine. But possibly 250/260.
My draw weight is low right now but will eventually get it up to 70# or 75# mod with a 30.5” draw.
 

Billy Goat

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A build that’s being built again?

Trying to determine which route to go for next arrow assembly/build/construction/fabrication. Most likely going with rampages, axis, or rip tko’s in a 300 spine. But possibly 250/260.
My draw weight is low right now but will eventually get it up to 70# or 75# mod with a 30.5” draw.

If plans are to go 75# you will want 260/250 spine.

That won't hurt you if you stay at 70#.


But much more than 6-7# swing and I'd be using different shaft spines.

A 340+ ibo bow with an arrow length of 29.5" and 70# is likely to push a 300 spine pretty hard in my experience.
 

Billy Goat

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If you nail a bunch of lumber together and end up with a house, is that assembling too?

It depends.

If it's a bunch of lumber going to together, it's probably a shed.

When I used to take logs and make cabins and timberframes, I'd call that building.

Kinda depends on how many different materials, it's a lot more than just lumber that goes into a house. So when you end up with 100 plus different kinds of components going into something, I start to call that building. Taking something that's like an ikea coffee table, that's assembling.

But when I was cutting trees, hauling, hewing, notching mortises, raising, yeah, I called that building a house.
Except barns, that was raising.

When I quarried rock, cut it, and put up retaining walls, laid chimneys and foundations I called it laying. So there's another aspect to make it a little more confusing.........
Only a few components there so I don't know.
 

Billy Goat

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It depends.

If it's a bunch of lumber going to together, it's probably a shed.

When I used to take logs and make cabins and timberframes, I'd call that building.

Kinda depends on how many different materials, it's a lot more than just lumber that goes into a house. So when you end up with 100 plus different kinds of components going into something, I start to call that building. Taking something that's like an ikea coffee table, that's assembling.

But when I was cutting trees, hauling, hewing, notching mortises, raising, yeah, I called that building a house.
Except barns, that was raising.

When I quarried rock, cut it, and put up retaining walls, laid chimneys and foundations I called it laying. So there's another aspect to make it a little more confusing.........
Only a few components there so I don't know.

Thinking about it more.....

The dude(s) who come and nail the lumber together are called the framers, not the GC's.
 

Button

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If plans are to go 75# you will want 260/250 spine.

That won't hurt you if you stay at 70#.


But much more than 6-7# swing and I'd be using different shaft spines.

A 340+ ibo bow with an arrow length of 29.5" and 70# is likely to push a 300 spine pretty hard in my experience.

That’s what I’m trying to decide. Buy 250/260 or 300. I’ll probably go with the heavier spine. Or buy a few of each and see what shoots the best.
Shooting a 31.5 VXR. I’m not so sure that my bows draw length is too short. I’m planning on getting some archery lessons to help out. It’s a lot like swimming, technique is everything. I swim like a fish but not so good with a bow.
 

Billy Goat

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That’s what I’m trying to decide. Buy 250/260 or 300. I’ll probably go with the heavier spine. Or buy a few of each and see what shoots the best.
Shooting a 31.5 VXR. I’m not so sure that my bows draw length is too short. I’m planning on getting some archery lessons to help out. It’s a lot like swimming, technique is everything. I swim like a fish but not so good with a bow.

VXR in my experience was hard on spine. Definitely 300 if you go 70#, and 260 for 75#.
 

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