New Arrow Build for 2022 *Update

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I'm jumping the FOC bandwagon.. just not the "extreme" foc bandwagon

I'm waffling on what spine i need for my 30" draw Z7

Current setup is Axis 300 w/ 50g insert and 100g head . This setup is sitting around 505g . 3 vanes and 10g wrap.

Looking at going to 150g broadheads but not sure if I can get away with 300 spine. Looking at either black eagle Rampage or X-impact so I'll sitting between ~505-530g. Thats if I can stick to 300 spine. These will have a 4" wrap

I'm probably going to have to bite the bullet and jump to a 250 spine because I want 150g heads. Arrow Guru's please impart thy knowledge

*update 2/22/22

I bought a new bow and I'm properly fitted at this point with a 31" draw. Arrows I'm trying out are BE Rampage and X-impact 250 spine and using Ethics inserts with collars. My goal was to break 15% FOC and with the new Ventum 33 set to 75# , I didn't have an issue doing this.. Arrows are actually about 50g heavier than I was originally shooting for because I thought that 550g arrow was going to be at the 275-280 fps mark. And this bow was throwing 550g arrows at 288 fps.. So i added another 35 grains to slow it down closer to the 280 fps mark

I'm having a couple of "woes" with Black Eagle arrows but part of the woes are due to old epoxy. I bought some new epoxy that should be here today. While waiting for the epoxy to ship I built some arrows this past weekend using AL insert w/AL collars from Ethics and glued everything together with hot melt.

I did not heat my arrow shafts directly. Once I dry fit the components with a field point, I marked the collar and arrow with a sharpie when I got the insert and point to spin true. The arrow did require some very light sanding with some 340 grit paper to get an interference/slip fit with the collar. I removed the collar and insert as a unit. I heated the glue and insert with a heat gun. Once the glue was heated, i started applying it to the insert in small globs and then applied heat from the heat gun to smooth out the glue evenly on the insert. I inserted the components in 1 shot so the collars are glued in too. I dropped the arrows into some water after assembly. I would assume this is the best connection. If hot melt fails me, then I have the new epoxy to fall back on.
 
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Bump79

WKR
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I have similar specs. You absolutely will need 250 spine
Well hold on I guess. How much weight would you put up front on the X-Impact? My setup is 175 total up front on my X-Impact or Storms. I had to cut them pretty short at 28.25 to get them to spine out perfect.
 

laltaffer

Lil-Rokslider
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I’m shootings 300 spine x-impacts with 200 up front (head+insert+collar), 7inch wrap, 3 vanes - 29in arrow and I’m shooting bullet holes - other than when my own form falls apart.

I’m also using the IW component system so the heads are seated in the shaft rather than an outsert system. IMO you’ll want to use some deep six insert system and not the outserts with that weight up front.


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OP
D
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Well hold on I guess. How much weight would you put up front on the X-Impact? My setup is 175 total up front on my X-Impact or Storms. I had to cut them pretty short at 28.25 to get them to spine out perfect.
I'd be using the 80g FOCOS insert/outsert
 

Zac

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Dorge with Firenock has been doing a lot of data crunching on efficiency and how it is affected by FOC. He's mostly finding that after 8-10 percent most arrows are dumping more energy the higher the FOC gets.
 

laltaffer

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Dorge with Firenock has been doing a lot of data crunching on efficiency and how it is affected by FOC. He's mostly finding that after 8-10 percent most arrows are dumping more energy the higher the FOC gets.
Got a link? I'd love to read what he's doing
 
OP
D
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Dorge with Firenock has been doing a lot of data crunching on efficiency and how it is affected by FOC. He's mostly finding that after 8-10 percent most arrows are dumping more energy the higher the FOC gets.
when you say "dumping" Are you implying that arrow is hitting target with more carry through impact energy OR are you saying there are negative gains after exceeding 10 percent?
 
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Dorge with Firenock has been doing a lot of data crunching on efficiency and how it is affected by FOC. He's mostly finding that after 8-10 percent most arrows are dumping more energy the higher the FOC gets.

16% is supposed to be the ''perfect'' FOC, because after that, the nose excessively dips which lifts the rear and creates excess drag with the vanes which creates noise and harms efficiency. I think most olympic trad archers are somewhere around that as well.

I'm jumping the FOC bandwagon.. just not the "extreme" foc bandwagon

I'm waffling on what spine i need for my 30" draw Z7

Current setup is Axis 300 w/ 50g insert and 100g head . This setup is sitting around 505g . 3 vanes and 10g wrap.

Looking at going to 150g broadheads but not sure if I can get away with 300 spine. Looking at either black eagle Rampage or X-impact so I'll sitting between ~505-530g. Thats if I can stick to 300 spine. These will have a 4" wrap

I'm probably going to have to bite the bullet and jump to a 250 spine because I want 150g heads. Arrow Guru's please impart thy knowledge

Why are you chasing high FOC? Just use 250's and add point weight until they spine/tune well with your BH's you want to use. I am 28'' draw and I use 300's with 165-180g of point weight until they tune. I cut them down to 27''. When I made some RIP XV's last year I had like 215g of point weight and for like 22% FOC and they didn't shoot any different than my other arrows with 11-16%. Now I just make sure I can run 125-150g broadheads with a stainless collar, stay 450-475TAW and it tunes. Besides that I don't care.
 

fatlander

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Buy this kit for 10 bucks and use your current shafts to see if it’ll tune at the weight upfront that you’re trying to build.

If it won’t, drop a spine.

You’re going to spend a lot of money for a new system that isn’t going to be noticeably any better than what you’ve currently got. Furthermore, outserts are a pain. They’re the Achilles heel of micro diameter arrows.


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Joined
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From the info provided, I assume you're currently shooting a 5mm Axis cut to around 29.5" (29.5" at 10.7 gpi + 100 gr head + 50 gr insert + 3 vanes at 7 gr/ea + 10 gr wrap + 9 gr nock = 506 gr TAW). You didn't mention your draw weight, but at 70# qSpine says your current 300 spine setup is near perfect:
Screenshot_20220119-090318_qSpine.jpg

Switching to a 150 gr head would weaken the arrow, but you would be slightly closer to optimal with a 300 than a 250 spine shaft:
Screenshot_20220119-090342_qSpine.jpg

Spine charts/software are just estimates though, actually shooting the arrow is the only true way to find "optimal" spine. I would recommend getting some 150 gr field points to see how your current arrows bareshaft tune with additional point weight (and how you like the trajectory) before you commit to new arrows or broadheads.
 
OP
D
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If FOC is truly that important to you, stop adding weight to the rear of your arrow.

Important but not the end all, be all. I add the wrap because inevitably a fletching will get jacked and take an arrow out of the lineup. when that happens, all I have to do is drop the arrow in a cup of warm water and the wrap come off nicely and I wipe down the carbon with some denatured to pull the remaining glue off. No scraping on the carbon and possibly weakening it. Plus the wrap are reflective material which makes finding them at dusk a little easier
 

Zac

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I think this has some of the info on the tests. Dorge also has a lecture up on his sight. I believe it is very in depth so be prepared if you choose to watch it. I talked to him on the phone regarding some of this. If I remember correctly he said that a .246 shaft like the Gold Tip Hunter traveling around 280 fps at 8 percent FOC showed the least energy loss across the spectrum. The smaller the arrow diameter, along with increased FOC showed increased loss of energy down range. I believe the different ends of the spectrum was 8 percent all the way up to 45 percent loss. The podcast talks about it, but basically the energy lost is due to torsion. Torsion gets more difficult to control on a small diameter platform, with high speeds, and lots of weight up front. I would also encourage anyone who is interested to call Dorge. He loves talking and will be happy to discuss this with you.
 

N2TRKYS

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Important but not the end all, be all. I add the wrap because inevitably a fletching will get jacked and take an arrow out of the lineup. when that happens, all I have to do is drop the arrow in a cup of warm water and the wrap come off nicely and I wipe down the carbon with some denatured to pull the remaining glue off. No scraping on the carbon and possibly weakening it. Plus the wrap are reflective material which makes finding them at dusk a little easier

I read your OP as wanting to increase FOC. Adding weight to the rear is counter productive to that. Wraps were always more of a pain in the ass for me to refletch than without wraps. Refletching a single vane was always easier without wraps for me.
 
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16% is supposed to be the ''perfect'' FOC, because after that, the nose excessively dips which lifts the rear and creates excess drag with the vanes which creates noise and harms efficiency. I think most olympic trad archers are somewhere around that as well.
Just curious, what's the source for the 16% number? I hear Easton's 10-15% recommendation quoted a lot, but I don't think I've heard anyone specifically claim 16% is best.
 

Zac

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Just curious, what's the source for the 16% number? I hear Easton's 10-15% recommendation quoted a lot, but I don't think I've heard anyone specifically claim 16% is best.
This guy lol
 

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wayoh22

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I can't really see the extra 50gr up front making any significant difference besides a longer sight tape.

In recent months, I feel like many have been chasing this "magical" FOC number or want to slap that label on themselves and to no avail really. I'm all for tinkering and trying things out; I get it. But FOC is just really out of control atm in my honest opinion.
 
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