New bird dog- do i aim for steady to shot?

Joe5000

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first bird dog. From what I understand, hunters usually train pointers to be either steady to shot (break for bird on the shot) or fully broke (will not break for bird until given a release command). Any thoughts on what is better for a hunter?

I am on east coast and will be hunting smaller pieces of ground if that matters. Wild birds if I can find them or preserves.
 

Okhotnik

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Steady to shot for me but I hunt a lot of wild pheasants. I used to train fully broke but dog had a difficult time tracking birds after shot and especially difficult in high brush, thick cover and high grass, cattails . Some of those roosters will fly far after being hit, drop and hit the ground tumble and keep running.
 
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I think it looks great, think it’s critical with Gentleman Bob, I think you’ll lose fewer crippled birds if your dog breaks on the bird when it flushes. Either way keep it fun for your pup and you’re going to have good days.
 

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huntineveryday

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Fully broke would be helpful if you're running multiple pointers or frequently hunting with people running other pointers. If you hunt your dog in front of young hunters or bigger groups of hunters a dog breaking after a low flushing bird could be dangerous for the dog.

I hunt by myself or with friends running flushers, steady to flush or shot is good enough for us. I help with youth mentor hunts and have to make sure the kids and mentors avoid shots low flying birds. That's about the only time of year I wish he was fully steady.
 

JMDavies

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Congrats on the new pup. Ive had a number of fully broke dogs that I competed with and also hunted. Fully broke dogs are like tree forts, they're never truly finished and can always improve. With that being said, hunting behind them is a pretty rewarding experience especially if you trained them yourself. I've noticed it's hard on a fully broke dog to hunt with retrievers or other dogs that aren't fully broke. (Nothing wrong with retrievers or partially finished pointers) Part of the dogs reward for being steady is being able to retrieve the bird (assuming you're wanting him to retrieve). Other dogs continually beating your dog to the bird can be problematic. You'll find yourself continually making corrections with your dog while the others are retrieving. In my opinion, fully broke dogs should hunt with small groups of 2 or 3 people and other broke dogs. I also noticed that when you have a fully broke dog, you lose it as a hunting dog and gain a hobby dog. The hunt becomes much more about the dog than the hunt. I found myself having more fun hunting with my dogs alone and bringing a friend. Id suggest breaking to shot with the type of hunting you're doing. Just my two cents. Couple of questions.

Breed?
How many people do you typically hunt with?
Do they have dogs?
Are they pointing dogs?
Are the other dogs fully broke?
 

WCB

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I'm with others on here. We hunt with French Britts...We train to break on shot. We are in the same boat with Pheasants. Also, hunt grouse and woodcock and allowing the dog to get on the bird faster works best for us.

Good discipline on the hunters end should always be there whether a dog is fully broke or not. Why? because even a perfectly fully broke dog is a dog and nothing goes as planned 100% of the time. Low birds around any dog is a no shot situation. I used to guide Pheasant hunts in SD. If I didn't feel comfortable with my dog in front of the hunters I plain and simply didn't run them. Same with my personal hunts and friends. I do not go into the field with undisciplined people. I will go into the field with inexperienced people running my dog but not undisciplined. I don't want to be in the field dog or not with those type of people.

Sorry to rant.
 

Okhotnik

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Very very important to have disciplined hunters if you don’t have a fully broke dog.
Yep

Im not a fan of bird hunting in large groups. I'll let one other guy at a time hunt with me.
I hunt alone over 90 per cent of time. The only issues I have with low flying birds are quail.
 

npm352

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Usually I train client dogs as steady-to-wing where they break at the shot. Some we go further and get fully broke at client request where the dog has to be physically touched to be released to retrieve the bird.

A couple things to consider. In most hunting scenarios it is nice for the dog to break at the shot and go get a winged bird...a chukar can run a long damn way on a broken wing. However, if you are loose on training during hunting (shooting birds that get kicked up without the dog hitting scent cone, shooting a bird that a dog took an extra step or two on, etc) a dog will revert backwards and become sloppy. This is ok. I hunt to kill so if I walk 5 miles to get a point and my dog creeps, I'll still shoot the bird. If it is blatant, like a dog straight running up birds, I will not reward with a shot.... but I can reinforce stuff in the training field later on training birds. When a dog reverts, it is a step back. So a fully broke dog will revert first to breaking at shot. A steady-to-wing dog will revert to breaking as soon as the bird flushes. If the sloppiness continues and the dog is rewarded for sloppy behavior the regression keeps going. I say take them as far as you can, but be a little loose hunting if you hunt wild birds knowing you can tune up if the dog takes a step back.

www.covemountainkennels.com
 
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The seven years I guided up land hunts I hated quail. I would avoid the quail haunts unless I knew the hunters well. Sugar is steady to wing and shot, Molly is not. Molly has also bitten at least three grizzlies at our place in Alaska. Driven off uncountable numbers. We have agreed I’ll quit trying to break her, she promises to sit by the cabins when I’m making plumbing repairs. Nothing like being under a 16 x 20 cabin and seeing big brown furry legs walk by.
To the point; you will lose birds in heavy cover with a well broke dog, your dog will likely not get shot. Again, have fun, bond with your dog, you’ll have great adventures.
 
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Usually I train client dogs as steady-to-wing where they break at the shot. Some we go further and get fully broke at client request where the dog has to be physically touched to be released to retrieve the bird.

A couple things to consider. In most hunting scenarios it is nice for the dog to break at the shot and go get a winged bird...a chukar can run a long damn way on a broken wing. However, if you are loose on training during hunting (shooting birds that get kicked up without the dog hitting scent cone, shooting a bird that a dog took an extra step or two on, etc) a dog will revert backwards and become sloppy. This is ok. I hunt to kill so if I walk 5 miles to get a point and my dog creeps, I'll still shoot the bird. If it is blatant, like a dog straight running up birds, I will not reward with a shot.... but I can reinforce stuff in the training field later on training birds. When a dog reverts, it is a step back. So a fully broke dog will revert first to breaking at shot. A steady-to-wing dog will revert to breaking as soon as the bird flushes. If the sloppiness continues and the dog is rewarded for sloppy behavior the regression keeps going. I say take them as far as you can, but be a little loose hunting if you hunt wild birds knowing you can tune up if the dog takes a step back.

www.covemountainkennels.com
Really a great explanation and in my opinion a perfect solution for the hobby trainer/hunter.
And I just added the website to my contacts.
 

Forks

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Congrats on your first best friend. All I can say is enjoy the time you get with it and remember they are pets for most of us that we get the great benefit of watching the magic happen if the breeding is good. I personally hunt by myself for the most part and sometimes put down a couple dogs which is a whole other story when it comes to the two of them working together. I want my dogs to break when the bird flushes because if I do my part, fido has a much better chance of getting the thing in it's mouth. I find wild roosters and chukar are amazing survivors after being shot and that's why I have evolved my relationship with my four legged partners fulling resizing the FOUNDATION must start with holding point till I say it's "OK" to move. Sometimes in heavier cover I want my EP and GSP to flush the bird out but ONLY after holding point. Just as NPM52 mentioned, I won't tolerate or reward a bird busting fool. The great thing is though, if the breeding is there, a few back to back busts and they usually get the joke if the reward is not there IMO. Lastly, I've found keeping my mouth shut after the foundation has been laid puts more birds in the bag. Super happy for all the adventures in your future with your best friend.
 
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Joe5000

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wow! thanks for all the posts. Great advice here and things to consider. Stay safe all
 
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J

Joe5000

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Congrats on the new pup. Ive had a number of fully broke dogs that I competed with and also hunted. Fully broke dogs are like tree forts, they're never truly finished and can always improve. With that being said, hunting behind them is a pretty rewarding experience especially if you trained them yourself. I've noticed it's hard on a fully broke dog to hunt with retrievers or other dogs that aren't fully broke. (Nothing wrong with retrievers or partially finished pointers) Part of the dogs reward for being steady is being able to retrieve the bird (assuming you're wanting him to retrieve). Other dogs continually beating your dog to the bird can be problematic. You'll find yourself continually making corrections with your dog while the others are retrieving. In my opinion, fully broke dogs should hunt with small groups of 2 or 3 people and other broke dogs. I also noticed that when you have a fully broke dog, you lose it as a hunting dog and gain a hobby dog. The hunt becomes much more about the dog than the hunt. I found myself having more fun hunting with my dogs alone and bringing a friend. Id suggest breaking to shot with the type of hunting you're doing. Just my two cents. Couple of questions.

Breed?
How many people do you typically hunt with?
Do they have dogs?
Are they pointing dogs?
Are the other dogs fully broke?

To answer questions--

English setter (FWIW has a "trial" background and does not seem to be a natural retriever)
Most of my hunting will be solo, could bring a friend or two.
No
No
No at this time

One bonus question: I will be hunting smaller tracts of land. Does that make fully broke more valuable? Someone suggested to me you want fully broke so the dog does not bust all the birds out? I am guessing this would only be applicable on a preserve hunt. I dont plan to do a ton of preserve hunting.
 
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I trained my dog to break on the bird. We hunt scaled quail and if the dog isn’t right behind them when they fall, the crippled ones have time to find a hole and they’re gone forever.
 

JMDavies

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To answer questions--

English setter (FWIW has a "trial" background and does not seem to be a natural retriever)
Most of my hunting will be solo, could bring a friend or two.
No
No
No at this time

One bonus question: I will be hunting smaller tracts of land. Does that make fully broke more valuable? Someone suggested to me you want fully broke so the dog does not bust all the birds out? I am guessing this would only be applicable on a preserve hunt. I dont plan to do a ton of preserve hunting.
I don't think the size of the ground really matters. Dogs steady to wing or shot shouldn't bump any more birds than a fully broke dog.
 

JjamesIII

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first bird dog. From what I understand, hunters usually train pointers to be either steady to shot (break for bird on the shot) or fully broke (will not break for bird until given a release command). Any thoughts on what is better for a hunter?

I am on east coast and will be hunting smaller pieces of ground if that matters. Wild birds if I can find them or preserves.
Yes 100%. I didn’t see the need to on my first pointer and I regretted it. The dog needs to learn not to break until told to. If they are allowed to release point on their own accord, they have the tendency to creep, especially if the bird is shifty. Now, the dog needs to be able to relocate on a running bird, but that’s more advanced bird handling that come with experience.
 
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There's not a really good answer to this question. Everyone is in a different situation and almost every bird acts different. Steady to shot is great with Roosters, Gambels and Blue Quail. They can run like a SOB if they are just winged or hole up. If you want to hunt Sharptail in the prairie, there is nothing more frustrating then watching a dog blow through the stragglers, chasing the first bird shot at. Some species you don't want a perfectly stanch dog, after about 15 points on a ruff grouse and no bird, you'll understand. I think the best thing for you to do is to pick a training style that you like (tons of options and videos on-line). Start with the basic obedience and run with it. To me Whoa is the most important command, you want to be able to stop your dog. Whoa isn't just for steadiness on birds. You need to remember, the first season is going to be a shit show with a young dog, their going to screw up, lose their minds and throw everything you trained them for out the window (Multiple times). All you can do is smile and laugh, have fun with it. Enter your training with no end goal, as you progress with your dog. You are going to figure out on your own how far you want to or need to take him.
 
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