New Bow, Which Arrow & Components?

[gelton]

Another arrow thread I know. The archery world is constantly evolving and I am upgrading from a 2015 Elite, most likely to a Mathews V3. The issue I am running into is that I am not a big fan of half outs or outserts in general and am leaning towards the Black Eagle Spartan .300. I am looking at 70# mods with a 28.5" draw length.

I shot the same arrows with the 2015 Elite with no wrap and 175 grains up front with 3 fletch SK .300's. With this setup I chonoed at 257 fps, which was less than desirable and IMO was a contributing factor to a missed long(ish) range shot on a nice elk.

This is one of the reasons I am leaning towards the V3, if for anything but the speed. However, when looking at archers advantage, with the BE Spartans in .300 spine (same arrow) I have to load up the back end (nocturnal, 4 fletch, 4 inch wrap) in order to keep the optimal spine which results in a heavier arrow, lower FOC (which isnt a big concern for me) and nearly the same estimated speed that I was getting from the Elite.

An important point of all of this is that the estimated speeds I was getting off of archers advantage was way off for the Elite (it estimated 291 fps and I was only getting ~ 257 fps.

The question is, with the same arrow with different components and the V3 it shows 295 (just +4 fps) and if the FPS error is to be expected on the V3 then all else being equal I would be at 261 fps...which for me isnt cutting it. What gives?

2015 Elite Synergy



2021 Mathews V3

 

[Kularrow]

My V3 27 with 460 Grain arrow chronoed at 287FPS 29/70.

 

[Samdemarais]

I shoot BE Spartan 300 as well. Same draw only 65 lbs. If you cut your arrow shorter I would think you could get it down to 460-475 grains and it should be around 280 out of that bow

 

[Samdemarais]

See image

 

[ZDR]

I’m a big Black Eagle fan, but just this week my local shop talked me into trying some Easton 4mm Axis long range arrows. So far I am super impressed. They weigh virtually the same as the Rampages I normally use and seem to be tougher. The wall thickness is fairly substantial. One dislike is the outserts, not a fan over all.
Might be worth a look though.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

AA definitely seems to be overestimating your speed. Elite advertises 307-310 fps for a 350 gr arrow out of a Synergy at 70#/28.5". Holding KE constant* (73-75 ft-lbs at advertised speed & arrow weight) and solving for speed with a 459 gr arrow predicts 268-271 fps. The difference between that estimate and your 257 fps chrono reading could be chalked up to the weight of accessories on the string and/or actual draw weight being a little lower than 70# due to cable stretch.

10 fps loss per inch of draw length under 30" and 1 fps loss per 3 gr of arrow weight over 350 gr are good rules of thumb for estimating actual speed based on IBO speed. Using that method, I'd predict that you could get 283 fps shooting a 483 gr arrow out of a 70#/28.5" Mathews V3 (342 fps IBO).

*KE tends to climb slightly with increasing arrow weight, but a constant KE assumption will still give a decent estimate of speed at various arrow weights.

 

[big44a4]

Rampages and X impacts are lighter GPI. Could also not add any weight to front of the Spartan to get speed up. If you were more specific with arrow goals that would help bring more suggestions. For me I stay around 530+ gr arrow and 275-285fps for hunting. I don’t care about FOC and build for total weight. The BE FOCOS system is nice as it protects arrow and if something happens you just replace the sleeve. Also ethics has a great reputation for components.

 

[gelton]

AA definitely seems to be overestimating your speed. Elite advertises 307-310 fps for a 350 gr arrow out of a Synergy at 70#/28.5". Holding KE constant* (73-75 ft-lbs at advertised speed & arrow weight) and solving for speed with a 459 gr arrow predicts 268-271 fps. The difference between that estimate and your 257 fps chrono reading could be chalked up to the weight of accessories on the string and/or actual draw weight being a little lower than 70# due to cable stretch.

10 fps loss per inch of draw length under 30" and 1 fps loss per 3 gr of arrow weight over 350 gr are good rules of thumb for estimating actual speed based on IBO speed. Using that method, I'd predict that you could get 283 fps shooting a 483 gr arrow out of a 70#/28.5" Mathews V3 (342 fps IBO).

*KE tends to climb slightly with increasing arrow weight, but a constant KE assumption will still give a decent estimate of speed at various arrow weights.

283fps, I would be fine with.

 

[gelton]

I’m a big Black Eagle fan, but just this week my local shop talked me into trying some Easton 4mm Axis long range arrows. So far I am super impressed. They weigh virtually the same as the Rampages I normally use and seem to be tougher. The wall thickness is fairly substantial. One dislike is the outserts, not a fan over all.
Might be worth a look though.

Yeah I was looking close at these, just not up to date on the components it would take to make em failproof.

 

[Scorpion]

I’d recommend 0.204” ID arrow with Iron Will inserts and impact collars. I have used the Easton Axis a lot but the Black Eagle Rampage would work as well. Eliminates the fulcrum from half outs or outserts and still allows use of normal 8-32 broadheads.

Elite makes a great bow but they aren’t speedy, especially compared to some of the new Mathews designs. I’m thinking you’ll be closer to 270-275 fps on the upper end, which is a great window. My elk bows are all setup around 269-272.

 

[N2TRKYS]

My search usually starts and ends with Gold Tip(GT) Hunter XT arrows. Never had any issues with them for nearly 20 years.

To play with a higher FOC without getting crazy arrow weight, I tried some Black Eagle Carnivores. They flew great, but didn’t really do anything that my GTs weren’t doing. I stayed with the GTs.

 

[Billy Goat]

Here's some numbers off of a VXR 31.5, seems you generally need to put your speed into AA for it to be accurate.

75# 80% letoff @ 28.5" (actual 29")
387 gr - 315.5 fps
412 gr- 305.6 fps
492 gr- 284.3
517 gr- 278.6
655 gr- 250

That's a measured 75# draw, and what amounts to a 29" draw, think they were "F" mods but don't remember. Also peep and loop on string. Same bow with 65# mod and 80%

346 gr - 315.4 fps
387 gr - 297.3 fps
412 gr - 286.6
492 gr - 267.1
517 gr - 260.1

Again measured an actual 65#.

Everything was average of 3 shots

 

[gelton]

Here's some numbers off of a VXR 31.5, seems you generally need to put your speed into AA for it to be accurate.

75# 80% letoff @ 28.5" (actual 29")
387 gr - 315.5 fps
412 gr- 305.6 fps
492 gr- 284.3
517 gr- 278.6
655 gr- 250

That's a measured 75# draw, and what amounts to a 29" draw, think they were "F" mods but don't remember. Also peep and loop on string. Same bow with 65# mod and 80%

346 gr - 315.4 fps
387 gr - 297.3 fps
412 gr - 286.6
492 gr - 267.1
517 gr - 260.1

Again measured an actual 65#.

Everything was average of 3 shots

Perfect, from my estimation I will be between 272 and 277 fps which is good enough for me. Cant defy physics. Based on the feedback from this thread and Iron Will turning out the "Snyder Core System" now I think the decision is between the BE Rampage or the Axis 4MM with the Snyder Core System. If Rampage I will probably just run the IW inserts without the collars.

 

[gelton]

I’d recommend 0.204” ID arrow with Iron Will inserts and impact collars. I have used the Easton Axis a lot but the Black Eagle Rampage would work as well. Eliminates the fulcrum from half outs or outserts and still allows use of normal 8-32 broadheads.

Elite makes a great bow but they aren’t speedy, especially compared to some of the new Mathews designs. I’m thinking you’ll be closer to 270-275 fps on the upper end, which is a great window. My elk bows are all setup around 269-272.

How important do you think it is to use the collars on a .204 arrow like the rampage? If it is that important I might as well go the 4MM route and use the new Snyder Core System from IW. But I have also heard that lighted nocks and 4MM shafts do not play well together.

I guess this is the learning curve of someone who hasn't paid attention to new developments in the archery industry over the last 5-6 years.

 

[Billy Goat]

Perfect, from my estimation I will be between 272 and 277 fps which is good enough for me. Cant defy physics. Based on the feedback from this thread and Iron Will turning out the "Snyder Core System" now I think the decision is between the BE Rampage or the Axis 4MM with the Snyder Core System. If Rampage I will probably just run the IW inserts without the collars.

Put me as a fan of .246 ID shafts. Likely nothing wrong with a .204 and hits, but I haven't found anything wrong with a "standard" .246 shaft.

The micro .166 stuff that's using snyder core or deep six just seems like way too much headache.

That 492 grain arrow in those setups was a BE carnivore with 60 grain top hat insert and 125 head. My elk arrow.

 

[gelton]

My V3 27 with 460 Grain arrow chronoed at 287FPS 29/70.

What arrow and spine are you shooting? Hard for me to locate an arrow that comes out at that weight that is also spined correctly with anything over 10% FOC.

 

[Scorpion]

How important do you think it is to use the collars on a .204 arrow like the rampage? If it is that important I might as well go the 4MM route and use the new Snyder Core System from IW. But I have also heard that lighted nocks and 4MM shafts do not play well together.

How important do you think it is to use the collars on a .204 arrow like the rampage? If it is that important I might as well go the 4MM route and use the new Snyder Core System from IW. But I have also heard that lighted nocks and 4MM shafts do not play well together.

I guess this is the learning curve of someone who hasn't paid attention to new developments in the archery industry over the last 5-6 years.

I think it’s important if you want a strong and durable arrow. I’ve used them with and without collars and there is a significant strength and toughness difference, especially with a side or lateral load when impact game.

Didnt originally suggest the Snyder Core system but it’s where I’d lean if starting from scratch, I assumed you were trying the arrows you had on hand. I shoot Day Six 300’s, which are 0.165/0.166 ID, the Nockturnal G nocks work great with them. That said, I’d be looking hard at the Easton Axis Long Range. The shafts are a little lighter than comparable nano diameters, which should pair great with 170-200 point weight.

 

[Kularrow]

What arrow and spine are you shooting? Hard for me to locate an arrow that comes out at that weight that is also spined correctly with anything over 10% FOC.

300 Spine Gold Tip Kinetic Kaos.

 

[CB4]

Here is my setup.
V3 31
28.5” draw
75 pounds
85% let off.

I am running BE Rampages 250 spine with 25 grain IW inserts and collars. They are 28.25” long. Using tac drivers and GT gto nocks. My FPS is 275 at 545 grains.

I am interested in victory rip tkos though. I think it would get my grains down to 505-510 and hopefully get the FPS to 285. That will probably be what I try next year.

 

[Kularrow]

OP, any arrow cut down to 27 inches carbon to carbon 300 spine around 8.5 GPI, 75 grains up front with 100 grain tip and 9 grain nock is going to put you around 460 total grains and 15% FOC. I’m not AA but my guess is you’ll be at just over 280 with that set up.