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[Billinsd]

There are plenty of fine dogs east of the Mississippi, so if this is truly a search for the best/most fitting litter I wouldn't put a ton of stock into location.

Right

Nowhere have I said they can't do that. I've just said they won't be the best at it. As I mentioned with bird dogs, the ones winning the eastern coverdog trials are not the ones winning the western wild bird trials. They are two different niches demanding different skillsets to excel.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if one wants a good chukar dog one should buy a pup from a litter of good chukar hunters.

That's not unreasonable to say, in fact it's logical. However, it's also limiting. I used to think the way you do until I met breaders and trainers east of the Mississippi. I sent my gsp to a gsp field trail trainer in Michigan for summer camp in North Dakota last year. He competes all over the US and his top dogs are great. In fact I hunted Sharptails with him and his best dogs in Montana. I'd hunt with those same dogs for chukar anytime. His dogs ranged real far, were obedient, heat tolerant and broke steady. http://www.ngspa.org/
http://www.monkeyshinekennels.com/
This is what I'm talking about. The top dogs winning these trials I believe would make good chukar dogs. However, the issue that these dogs could have is they have tons of energy and drive and are a lot of dog. I've heard some people say western breaders breed their dogs for hard feet. I talked with several western breeders that say they don't and that's baloney. I had a Shooting Starr NAVHDA dog and she was real sweet and obedient. But, she didn't like the water or retrieving. I've heard of some others in California. NAVHDA dogs are real nice, but they poke along compared to field trail dogs. However, I hunt when it's hot in wide open spaces. My current dog with a field trial champion dad is a whole lot of dog for me after having shorter ranging gsps. They are all wonderful dogs, however they are very different in energy, range, drive and ain't for the faint of heart. There is LOTS of misinformation out there. As for me, I'm no expert. However, I have gotten out a lot and seen for my own eyes. That's the only real way you can know. You can't trust what people say. Don't trust me either, see for yourself. Most dog owners are extremely opinionated and won't tell you their dogs shortcomings or understand that everyone else hunts like them. Get out there and look at dogs in action and talk to their owners, breeders, and trainers. I've found what's best for me, for now. Bill

 

[manitou1]

If the parents are good hunters with the qualities you desire, pick the pup based on temperament.
There are schitty pups from well-known breeders and great pups from little-known breeders and vice versa.
Your odds go up if they come from a lineage of hunters, but nothing is guaranteed... unless the breeder guarantees the pup, which some do.
You can train a far-ranging dog to hunt closer, but you can't train a heel licker to range out.
I have lucked out on GSPs in the past that were tough, excellent hunters.

 

[Okhotnik]

If the OP is going to hunt open country chukar and huns it makes worlds more sense to get a breeding that is winning western wild bird trials. Maybe in shorthairs those are the same dogs, I don’t know, I only know bird dogs, and coverdog pointers and setters don’t fare near as well out west because they don’t range as big. I also think the feet and heat tolerance play into it too.

In a big big world like shorthairs, you gotta make your first cut somewhere. To me geography is the most obvious first cut.

Heat tolerance is definitely an issue to consider

 

[jmez]

Not sure I get the whole "heat tolerance out west thing?"
Pretty much all of the top end trainers from East of the Mississippi spend the entire summer in ND, SD, or MT due to weather being much more conducive to dog training. All of the early Field Trials are in the same states and Canada because the weather is not as bad out west.

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[Dos Perros]

Not sure I get the whole "heat tolerance out west thing?"
Pretty much all of the top end trainers from East of the Mississippi spend the entire summer in ND, SD, or MT due to weather being much more conducive to dog training. All of the early Field Trials are in the same states and Canada because the weather is not as bad out west.

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What don’t you get about it?

I think the idea is that western bird seasons start Sept 1 in some places. Whereas for example Kansas opens early or middle November. Western dogs are usually tasked with higher temps and less water, in my experience at least.

If I were a Pennsylvania grouse hunter I might care less about heat tolerance than a Texas quail hunter.

 

[Dos Perros]

Oh, maybe I get your question. Some people believe heat tolerance is a genetic thing you can breed for. Some breeders selectively breed for things like heat tolerance and good feet because they understand that ultimately traits like that lead to more dead birds.

 

[deerkiller]

What don’t you get about it?

I think the idea is that western bird seasons start Sept 1 in some places. Whereas for example Kansas opens early or middle November. Western dogs are usually tasked with higher temps and less water, in my experience at least.

If I were a Pennsylvania grouse hunter I might care less about heat tolerance than a Texas quail hunter.

OR a Hells Canyon / Snake River chukar hunter

 

[jmez]

What I don't get is that if dogs in the east are less heat tolerant why do they spend the whole summer in the west because it's too hot and humid where they live? They live and train in the west all summer because it isn't as hot.

 

[Dos Perros]

What I don't get is that if dogs in the east are less heat tolerant why do they spend the whole summer in the west because it's too hot and humid where they live? They live and train in the west all summer because it isn't as hot.

I don't think there is a logical connection in your question.

The greater point that again is being missed is...no one is saying you can't take a dog from the east and hunt him west. What I am saying is that the dogs that are winning eastern trials are not the same dogs that are dominating western trials. Those are two separate and sometimes divergent populations. Everyone on this forum can understand you don't take a pair of 8x30 binoculars you use stand hunting whitetails out west to hunt mule deer. You pick the best tool for the job. And folks, trust me on this one, the best chukar hunting dogs out there are bred to hunt chukar by breeders that hunt chukar and sell dogs to chukar hunters. I'm surprised this concept is met with such a stimulus antibody response here. But, maybe I shouldn't be surprised, people get goofy talking dogs.

 

[jmez]

I've watched a whole lot of pointers from east of the Mississippi dominate the western fall trials for alot of years.

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[Dos Perros]

Are those same dogs dominating coverdog trials? Which ones?

 

[codym]

I’m not a big time breeder and I don’t run in many trials anymore but I still train dogs for clients and put in 30-50 years a day behind dogs from New Mexico to Idaho. I’m specifically breeding smaller pointers that have big time noses that can handle the heat. I have had to sort through dozens maybe closer to hundreds of dogs to find what works for me. My stud dog is out of Great River Ice, the winningest shooting dog of all time, mostly ran in the east and the south by the Tracy’s. It really didn’t matter what the lines were or where they came from, I knew in my head that I wanted smaller tough dogs that were light on their feet with a good punch that can smell a running scaled quail in 0 percent humidity at 80 degrees. I found it on both sides and bred it. I’m constantly getting second and third generations that are of the same build as their parents and grand parents. My dogs probably wouldn’t do great in cover dog stuff back east in edge cover and would probably really struggle in thick high crp. They weren’t built for that. Could they point me birds there? With out a doubt and they have, just not what where or how I like to hunt. Get a dog that does things the way YOU like to do them. Whole square peg round hole thing.

 

[Buzby]

Look hard at DKs and DDs. The Germans have a MUCH stricter breeding program than the AKC. It produces more reliable results.

 

[Muleyczy]

I appreciate everyone’s feedback. Definitely some great points to consider and I’ve got a couple leads that I think will help locate the dog I’m looking for. Thanks again everyone!

 

[jebanning1s]

Definitely quiz your breeder about the personalities of the available puppies. We just picked the cutest one from a reputable kennel, and ended up with a neurotic psycho. He can hunt....but yeah...he's a pain in the ass. Granted, that's true for a lot of GSPs. My lab is a angel in comparison.

The ugliest dog always seems to hunt the best. He knows he can't just fall back on his looks.