Nock Right Paper Tear

[Billy Goat]

I'm not exactly sure of the physics behind it. This was something I discussed with Brent from Valkyrie regarding static spine vs dynamic spine. I believe he tends to think high modulus carbon reacts dynamically stiffer than low modulus.

Is he selling you something?

I got no dog in this fight. But tend to think spine is spine. Could be in the dynamics of everything something can recover or flex/faster slower.


I'm just hesitant to support stuff that comes from someone selling something. Needs to be proven.


My point being if it was someone who wasn't trying to sell you on something, I'd believe it more. However I generally don't believe much of anything with archery till I can replicate it myself.
Guess I'm hard headed like that.

 

[wapitibob]

In my other life working for a bow mfg we burned a sample from every lot of skin glass to confirm the resin/glass numbers provided by Gordon. Resin content had a direct affect on modulus of elasticity, which in turn had a direct affect on limb deflection values.

 

[Billy Goat]

In my other life working for a bow mfg we burned a sample from every lot of skin glass to confirm the resin/glass numbers provided by Gordon. Resin content had a direct affect on modulus of elasticity, which in turn had a direct affect on limb deflection values.

If it affected limb deflection that would be the strength of the limbs correct?

Just like it would change spine on a tester.

Or are you saying it changes the recovery time of the limbs?

 

[dkime]

In my other life working for a bow mfg we burned a sample from every lot of skin glass to confirm the resin/glass numbers provided by Gordon. Resin content had a direct affect on modulus of elasticity, which in turn had a direct affect on limb deflection values.

I agree, but you didn’t then turn around and say that a 70# limb acted like a 60# limb; correct? I’m not trying to be a complete smart ass with all this; I’m truly trying to make sure that I’m lined out. It seems like we’re trying to say that 50# of feathers weighs less than 50# of lead


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[Fins_N_Tines]

With a drop away rest there is no reason you shouldn’t get those arrows to shoot bullet holes with a stiff arrow. You ever notice Gold Tip doesn’t list spine on their target arrows (it’s like a 150). According to Tim G. there is no such thing as too stiff for someone with good form.

You have something else going on. Fletching contact, cam misalignment? Is your center shot set at spec?

Could be bad grip, face pressure..... list goes on and on.

Let someone else (someone with good experience) shoot your bow and see if they can shoot a bullet hole.


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well I think I found the issue. Paper tuning this weekend will tell m for sure. I got home and started picking my bow apart and found the nocks that came with Day Six arrows are way to tight for my serving. I will buy same nock as my old arrows and be sure.

 

[wapitibob]

If it affected limb deflection that would be the strength of the limbs correct?

Just like it would change spine on a tester.

Or are you saying it changes the recovery time of the limbs?

yes
yes, static measurement at 6" deflection, in lbs.
no

 

[wapitibob]

I agree, but you didn’t then turn around and say that a 70# limb acted like a 60# limb; correct? I’m not trying to be a complete smart ass with all this; I’m truly trying to make sure that I’m lined out. It seems like we’re trying to say that 50# of feathers weighs less than 50# of lead


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The deflection rate at 6" determined what the bow peak weight would be for a given wheel or cam. The layup components were specked to yield a calculated outcome, but in practice we would get a bell curve. So you could actually end up with a 70# limb from 60# components.

That bell curve, the labor involved, and good marketing by Dave Gordon is why mfg's went to solid glass limbs.

 

[Zac]

Is he selling you something?

I got no dog in this fight. But tend to think spine is spine. Could be in the dynamics of everything something can recover or flex/faster slower.


I'm just hesitant to support stuff that comes from someone selling something. Needs to be proven.


My point being if it was someone who wasn't trying to sell you on something, I'd believe it more. However I generally don't believe much of anything with archery till I can replicate it myself.
Guess I'm hard headed like that.

Lol yes he sold me over 1000 dollars of components. That being said I believe Brent is as honest a guy that you will ever come across in this industry.

 

[Billy Goat]

yes
yes, static measurement at 6" deflection, in lbs.
no

It seems then that if it is changing the deflection because of the components, the same principal would apply to arrows.

Meaning this high/low modulos carbon or whatever should show on the spine. So it wouldn't matter.

Unless it does change the reaction speed, and that's something that I'm starting to believe is possible.

 

[Zac]

It seems then that if it is changing the deflection because of the components, the same principal would apply to arrows.

Meaning this high/low modulos carbon or whatever should show on the spine. So it wouldn't matter.

Unless it does change the reaction speed, and that's something that I'm starting to believe is possible.

It's totally possible, just watch one of Dorge's lectures.

 

[Billy Goat]

It's totally possible, just watch one of Dorge's lectures.

Thing is I go down these worm holes of thought.

In practice it doesn't matter. I enjoy trying to gain an understanding of these things, and I think it makes you a better bow mechanic. But in the end I just need to be able to shoot the damn thing.


When you suck it just doesn't matter what everything is made out of.

 

[Zac]

Thing is I go down these worm holes of thought.

In practice it doesn't matter. I enjoy trying to gain an understanding of these things, and I think it makes you a better bow mechanic. But in the end I just need to be able to shoot the damn thing.


When you suck it just doesn't matter what everything is made out of.

It totally matters in practice. Obviously it won't make up for issues such as poor form, but the physics of arrow flight affects everything that happens after the arrow leaves the string. Judging arrow flight probability with a stationary arrow with a weight hanging off of it will probably become a draconian system soon.

 

[5MilesBack]

It totally matters in practice.

I'm much less about the "how's" or "why's" and much more about the "what I experience".......so I agree. I still remember my eye doctor years ago telling me one day "well, you've told me that exact same thing now 15 times, so it must be right........for you". So I asked "Is it supposed to be wrong?" And he replied "For every other person I've ever tested......yes".

 

[Billy Goat]

It totally matters in practice. Obviously it won't make up for issues such as poor form, but the physics of arrow flight affects everything that happens after the arrow leaves the string. Judging arrow flight probability with a stationary arrow with a weight hanging off of it will probably become a draconian system soon.

It doesn't matter once it's tuned.

We already know the charts are a starting point.

The idea of hanging a weight is a good way to evaluate spines. It puts everything on an even playing field, allows you to judge them against each other. Always going to need that. Might be some materials react a little different, but arrows within the same spine category react different as it is, at least if you aren't purchasing spine sorted arrows.


I don't think measuring spine has ever been a way of determining arrow flight, it's just a base line to get you in the ball park of where the arrow will tune.

 

[Zac]

It doesn't matter once it's tuned.

We already know the charts are a starting point.

The idea of hanging a weight is a good way to evaluate spines. It puts everything on an even playing field, allows you to judge them against each other. Always going to need that. Might be some materials react a little different, but arrows within the same spine category react different as it is, at least if you aren't purchasing spine sorted arrows.


I don't think measuring spine has ever been a way of determining arrow flight, it's just a base line to get you in the ball park of where the arrow will tune.

Not sure what we're arguing about then.

 

[CB4]

To follow up on my post earlier. Got my bow back from the shop. The swapping of the top hats got my tear down from about 1/2 inch to 1/4 or so. I will equate that to human error/torque. Vanes should straighten it out fast.

 

[Billy Goat]

Not sure what we're arguing about then.

Misinterpretation of text I reckon.


Possibly in my use of practice, I didn't mean the actual act of practicing archery. I meant in real use. Charts, programs, and everything else get you close. It's only once the rubber meets the road and you start shooting a setup that anything really matters.


Then add in my mind wandering....

 

[dkime]

@Fins_N_Tines Day Six uses AAE IP4 nocks, they’re fairly thick top to bottom and on your short ATA bow you’ll need to tie in some pretty forgiving nock sets. As far as center serving diameter I’ve used up to .111” and had no tuning issues from the throat at that diameter. I ran into a similar issue with my VXR.

A few more things for anyone else; if you really want to learn about dynamic spine and how it impacts arrow flight then please sign up for Field Nationals in Yankton this year. Fairly certain there’s a 900 round to be shot as well. I’ll be driving a white 2011 GMC 1500 and would love to shoot with any of you so that we can stop pretending that archery and it’s low velo projectiles are of grave importance to the laws of physics. Or sign up for a TAC event, wear your Sitka range pants, tell the world what your FOC is, argue over which vanes are better for stabilizing your setup, and keep pumping money into the products that Dorge and Brent are trying to sell you.


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[Kularrow]

I don’t even know who Dorge or Brent are LOL I’m just a dude trying to tune a bow to kill a whitetail from a tree.

 

[dkime]

I don’t even know who Dorge or Brent are LOL I’m just a dude trying to tune a bow to kill a whitetail from a tree.

Dude were gonna have to start a whole new thread for you lol I'm gonna take a lap and get back to work