North American Non Lead Partnership Opinions

[spike camp]

Well, sounds like the OP got his answer...

No matter how well it’s worded, anything that attempts to limit anything that has to do with guns or hunting is invariably linked to antis and lefts.

 

[KurtR]

Well, sounds like the OP got his answer...

No matter how well it’s worded, anything that attempts to limit anything that has to do with guns or hunting is invariably linked to antis and lefts.

You pretty much nailed it.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

APWRA kills 75 to 110 Golden Eagles every year but I need to switch to copper... Turn off the bird grinders and we can have a conversation about copper bullets...until then it's posturing by the anti gun crowd.

 

[ODB]

Well, sounds like the OP got his answer...

No matter how well it’s worded, anything that attempts to limit anything that has to do with guns or hunting is invariably linked to antis and lefts.

It would be wise to consider the laws of unintended consequences.

 

[spike camp]

It would be wise to consider the laws of unintended consequences.

Lead poisoning?

 

[KurtR]

Lead poisoning?

Thats about 24th on a list of things but......

 

[ODB]

Lead poisoning?

You are thinking in the wrong direction. Read my post again.

Here’s an example in another realm: What’s the problem (unintended consequence) with handing out mosquito netting to stop the spread of malaria?

Answer: When those nets are used for fishing instead of preventing malaria (addressing their immediate need for food) their small holes trap fry that will never grow into larger fish, thus depleting the food supply.

Point is, nothing exists in a vacuum or silo, when something can be twisted for an ulterior motive, it will be. It’s not paranoia, it’s paying attention.

 

[spike camp]

Thats about 24th on a list of things but......

But it’s on your list?

 

[spike camp]

You are thinking in the wrong direction. Read my post again.

Here’s an example in another realm: What’s the problem (unintended consequence) with handing out mosquito netting to stop the spread of malaria?

Answer: When those nets are used for fishing instead of preventing malaria (addressing their immediate need for food) their small holes trap fry that will never grow into larger fish, thus depleting the food supply.

Point is, nothing exists in a vacuum or silo, when something can be twisted for an ulterior motive, it will be. It’s not paranoia, it’s paying attention.

I was being facetious...but good example (mosquito netting).

 

[KurtR]

But it’s on your list?

So is picking fly shit out of chili but i never get to it before i eat it....

 

[Tod osier]

1. The lead isotope found in the dead California condors is not the same that is found in ammunition. It is lead, but it is not from bullets. Where it come from,who knows.

I do not believe this is true. All the literature I've seen says otherwise. I'd appreciate any evidence to the contrary that is published in an actual peer- reviewed journal that contradicts the below papers...

One paper:

Lead poisoning and the deceptive recovery of the critically endangered California condor

Myra E. Finkelstein, Daniel F. Doak, Daniel George, Joe Burnett, Joseph Brandt, Molly Church, Jesse Grantham, and Donald R. Smith

PNAS July 10, 2012 109 (28) 11449-11454; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1203141109


A second paper:

Ammunition is the Principal Source of Lead Accumulated by California Condors Re-Introduced to the Wild

MOLLY E. CHURCH, †,$ ROBERTO GWIAZDA, † ROBERT W. RISEBROUGH, ‡ KELLY SORENSON, § C. PAGE CHAMBERLAIN, | SEAN FARRY, ⊥ , @ WILLIAM HEINRICH, ⊥ BRUCE A. RIDEOUT, # AND DONALD R. SMITH* , †

Environ. Sci. Technol. 2006, 40, 6143-6150

https://escholarship.org/content/qt8t6239j0/qt8t6239j0.pdf

2. The XRAY everyone has seen of the deer with white spots scattering of lead projectiles spread throughout, was fake. It was created as a representation of what a deer was believed to have looked like after being shot.

I'm pretty familiar with a couple papers with radiographs as you describe. Can you provide any information that indicates which of these it may be and any evidence that it is "fake"?

 

[ODB]

I do not believe this is true. All the literature I've seen says otherwise. I'd appreciate any evidence to the contrary that is published in an actual peer- reviewed journal that contradicts the below papers...

One paper:

Lead poisoning and the deceptive recovery of the critically endangered California condor

Myra E. Finkelstein, Daniel F. Doak, Daniel George, Joe Burnett, Joseph Brandt, Molly Church, Jesse Grantham, and Donald R. Smith

PNAS July 10, 2012 109 (28) 11449-11454; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1203141109


A second paper:

Ammunition is the Principal Source of Lead Accumulated by California Condors Re-Introduced to the Wild

MOLLY E. CHURCH, †,$ ROBERTO GWIAZDA, † ROBERT W. RISEBROUGH, ‡ KELLY SORENSON, § C. PAGE CHAMBERLAIN, | SEAN FARRY, ⊥ , @ WILLIAM HEINRICH, ⊥ BRUCE A. RIDEOUT, # AND DONALD R. SMITH* , †

Environ. Sci. Technol. 2006, 40, 6143-6150

https://escholarship.org/content/qt8t6239j0/qt8t6239j0.pdf

I'm pretty familiar with a couple papers with radiographs as you describe. Can you provide any information that indicates which of these it may be and any evidence that it is "fake"?

i know people who have scanned (mri and ct) dolphins and pigs for studies for the navy and traffic council respectively. It would be really interesting to perform similar lead fragmentation studiesin a controlled environment.

 

[Tod osier]

i know people who have scanned (mri and ct) dolphins and pigs for studies for the navy and traffic council respectively. It would be really interesting to perform similar lead fragmentation studiesin a controlled environment.

Do you shoot the animals and scan them? I'm not being a smartass, just not sure what you mean.

 

[87TT]

When the military starts using non lead bullets, then we can talk. Otherwise ……...…...………….

 

[Pro953]

Unfortunately raptors fall into the same range as “charismatic megafauna” such as wolves and bears that make logical thought fall to the wayside. Outside of the condor raptor populations are quite strong. Even the vaulted bald eagle can fall into the pest catagory around here when fishing rivers and lakes. If we were talking about seagulls nobody would bat an eye.

About the only reason I am pro copper in my household is that I have young kids and I would prefer in minimize incidental lead exposure. Honestly I am not sure if that holds up to science either, but with my kids, my decision making is not very logical either.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ODB]

Do you shoot the animals and scan them? I'm not being a smartass, just not sure what you mean.

That’s what I would do, yes. No need to waste the meat as the animal can be kept cold until after the scan (don’t ask me how I know this) and CT scans are fast. One pass through the tube then on to the butcher.
Having worked in and been around radiology for almost 20 years has given some interesting insight into how we know what we know about certain things...;-)

 

[Ndbowhunter]

It’s really simple.

appear to be weak when you are strong.

throw dissension within the ranks of the enemy.

The ultimate way to cloak propaganda is to deceive the uninitiated with catch phrases such as “science” or “common sense”.


The sad part is the play keeps changing cast but the plot remains the same. For more then a century. And still well intentioned people fall victim. There’s always a Judas among the ranks. Just have to sniff them out and minimize their impact.

 

[Tod osier]

That’s what I would do, yes. No need to waste the meat as the animal can be kept cold until after the scan (don’t ask me how I know this) and CT scans are fast. One pass through the tube then on to the butcher.
Having worked in and been around radiology for almost 20 years has given some interesting insight into how we know what we know about certain things...;-)

-There are a couple studies that have shot and then x-rayed the animals. Lots of info from those studies about the extent fo fragmentation.

Bullet fragmentation and lead deposition in white-tailed deer and domestic sheep

MD Grund, L Cornicelli, LT Carlson, EA Butler - Human-wildlife interactions, 2010



Quantitative assessment of bullet fragments in viscera of sheep carcasses as surrogates for white-tailed deer

L Cruz-Martinez, MD Grund… - Human–Wildlife …, 2015

 

[Okhotnik]

Why does it have to be an either or question? There is time an money to go around for both. it seems to that getting in on the ground floor, where we as hunters set the parameters, lead by example and maybe circumvent non voluntary restrictions ...could very well be a net benefit to the sport. I think as group hunters have been guilty of sitting on hands and only getting off our asses when it’s time to be reactive.
It’s nice to see some pro action for a change.

So as hunters and sportsmen if we give up our rights to anti gun anti hunting groups we can improve our image?


I used to live in NYC where it was a felony to possess any firearm or possess one round of ammo. Didn't just ban magazines and semi auto rifles in NY? How's that working out for you NY ers?

Many hunters are not sitting on their hands but are very pro active and are members in Mule deer foundation, DU, ruffed grouse society, TU RMEF etc. Maybe you should do you part.

 

[Okhotnik]

Lead poisoning?

Do sportsmen have higher lead levels in their blood compared to non hunting public?

Can you purchase a 20 round mag now in Colorado or are they still banned?