Pack Mules or Pack Goats?

Mike 338

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Goats are easy keepers. They cost very little although they don't live very long. Also low management in the field. I pretty much always had issues with them quitting when carrying a full load (30-40 lbs). Better training would probably help. Tack is much less expensive. Everything is less expensive.

Mules can be ridden and packed. They're expensive to buy and difficult to train. By difficult to train, I mean mean their minds do not mature as quickly as horses so they're very insecure up to 5 or 6. Then they can become very solid. They're "thinkers" so during training, they're always thinking if what your asking is a good idea. It takes patience to train a mule but in reality, horses "should" be trained the way mules "must" be trained. Mules require very little vet/doctor work. They live a long time and they're tough. If you've never had a mule before, you may want to buy an older/seasoned one. Colts require quite a bit of patience but in the end, they're worth it. A mule has a self-preservation instinct. In the mountains, that can be more valuable than you first realize. When a mule doesn't want to do something, you should consider that as "counseling", as in retrospect, I noted that I've avoided wrecks because of it.

I've had both and I currently have mules. Won't go back to goats but I've never been injured by a goat and have been hurt with horses/mules. Tough call. Still like mules. A good horse/mule will spoil you.
 

Ryan Avery

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Goats are easy keepers. They cost very little although they don't live very long. Also low management in the field. I pretty much always had issues with them quitting when carrying a full load (30-40 lbs). Better training would probably help. Tack is much less expensive. Everything is less expensive.

Mules can be ridden and packed. They're expensive to buy and difficult to train. By difficult to train, I mean mean their minds do not mature as quickly as horses so they're very insecure up to 5 or 6. Then they can become very solid. They're "thinkers" so during training, they're always thinking if what your asking is a good idea. It takes patience to train a mule but in reality, horses "should" be trained the way mules "must" be trained. Mules require very little vet/doctor work. They live a long time and they're tough. If you've never had a mule before, you may want to buy an older/seasoned one. Colts require quite a bit of patience but in the end, they're worth it. A mule has a self-preservation instinct. In the mountains, that can be more valuable than you first realize. When a mule doesn't want to do something, you should consider that as "counseling", as in retrospect, I noted that I've avoided wrecks because of it.

I've had both and I currently have mules. Won't go back to goats but I've never been injured by a goat and have been hurt with horses/mules. Tough call. Still like mules. A good horse/mule will spoil you.

Sounds like you may have had them goats overloaded?
 

Ryan Avery

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I'm not sure where you are hunting but this is copied straight out of the Colorado Parks And Wildlife hunting brochure.

Pack Animals
Some people use animals other than horses to pack in gear to hunt
camps. Please, do not use goats. These animals can spread disease to
Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep. Llamas, however, are acceptable.

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This is a complete lie by CP&W.

If you do a little research you find that this is #Fakenews
 

Mike 338

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Sounds like you may have had them goats overloaded?

A reasonable assumption and no doubt true because if their packs were empty, they'd be fine. Still, these are big goats (Alpines) and none got more than 35 lbs and the smaller got about 25 lbs. The two biggest goats with the biggest loads were champs. The smaller ones (but not much smaller) were a little less enthusiastic. Humans picked up the slack. I attribute some of it to little or no training during the off season. When your not aware you have a job to do, the best solution is to just lay down. Also used Saanan goats. They're even bigger but seem less durable. Alpines can have an attitude though. I still like the Alpines. On the trail they'll pack all day though but in the steeps, it's much harder.
 

CX5Ranch

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We used goats on our Montana Elk hunt. They were incredible. Each had 40lbs of meat. They followed anywhere and as far as deadfalls and topo navigation there is no way anything other than a goat was going to navigate the terrain we were in.
A good pack string will trot where a goat cant walk.

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wysongdog

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Goats have personalities like dogs if you treat them right. My mules do to tho. I went with mules because I like the bond and being up higher and being able too see better when I’m riding. That was my deciding factor. I could ride the mule and not the goats.
 

pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

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Your other option is llamas, guys packed some into our area this year. They bout caused a huge wreck with our pack string in a really rocky spot not the guys fault or ours just horses and mules don't seem to like llamas much.

I realize this is an old reply but I've used llamas a few times now. I have been told ahead of time that horses/mules get spooked by them which is more of a statement about the horses/mules, the llamas don't care about the horses/mules. So to be polite it has always been my intention if crossing paths with horses/mules to warn from a distance on the trail and work off the trail as feasible. By no means is it universal but some horseman have a rather entitled attitude on the trails so I figure its best to try and be polite when passing each other but can't really blame the llamas for the way the horses spook (though I am sure some guys would).

We used goats on our Montana Elk hunt. They were incredible. Each had 40lbs of meat. They followed anywhere and as far as deadfalls and topo navigation there is no way anything other than a goat was going to navigate the terrain we were in.

I've been pretty pleased/surprised at the terrain llamas can walk on, I'm sure goats are better but the llamas handle stuff you couldn't take a horse on.
 
K

Kootenay Hunter

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This is a complete lie by CP&W.

If you do a little research you find that this is #Fakenews

Can you clarify what part is fake news?

M. Ovis and E. Ovis among other diseases are transmissible between sheep and goats, both domestic and wild. There are also diseases that can be transmissible from camelids (llamas, alpacas) to wild sheep and goats, albeit much more rare.

Some of our RMBHS herds have been devastated by a pneumonia transmitted by domestic sheep.

"research has shown unequivocally that disease transmission from domestic sheep to wild sheep occurs, reinforcing our belief that potential contact between wild and domestic sheep and goats is a primary challenge facing wild sheep survival, enhancement, restoration, and management in many western states and provinces. "

http://www.wildsheepfoundation.org/...olicy-ExecSummary9711Final.pdf?20160718022211
 

slick

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Ryan, Im also curious what you believe is fake news? Seems like there is pretty indisputable evidence coming from most western states that disagree with you.
 

Fatcamp

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Trying to find a llama to desensitize my horses. Don't want first exposure to be on the trail.

Can't ride a goat.
 
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Interesting thread. I have thought about getting something and always lean towards goats or llamas. Mostly goats though since I know nothing about llamas. Goats can go places horses and mules can't. Goats you only need to water every 3-5 days. Horses can't get to a lot of places I hunt. Goats can go more places than I can. Goats are less maintenance than horses and mules. You can hunt with camp on your goats back. You can''t do that in a lot of areas with horses or mules. If you can get to your kill so can your goat. Not so with horses and mules. You can't ride a goat but you can a horse or mule.

I think a lot of the pros and cons depend on the type of hunting you do and the terrain you hunt. Right now I'm in good enough shape to pack my hunting stuff on a backpack hunt. If I had a few goats they could easily pack my camp and food. If I got something down they could pack out the meat and I could pack camp and gear. 50lbs would be a lot nicer on the trip out than 120+ lbs.
 

brockel

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Currently putting my string of goats together. Have had horses and mules and goats fit my hunting style better. Can fit 7 of them in the back of the pickup. I do 95% of my hunting on my own and have had enough mule/horse rodeos that ive been lucky enough to come out fine on. Figured I better not press my luck
 

CX5Ranch

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What! This makes no sense, please explain.

You talking through deadfall?
A good mule will walk through dead fall much faster than a human. Most horses will too.
I'm not talking spooky rodeo broncs like most people have. I'm talking good mountain stock.

A goat will get stuck in between rocks along a worn jogging trail.

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Ryan Avery

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Ryan, Im also curious what you believe is fake news? Seems like there is pretty indisputable evidence coming from most western states that disagree with you.

I totally believe domesticated sheep transmit diseases to wild sheep and it kills them. As for goats, not so much. As to the post above, the CWP took down or moved the article I was referring to about being #fakenews. It was just a bashing piece on pack goats. But I do believe you should always use common sense with your pack animals.


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0178707

https://packgoats.com/packgoats-bighorn-sheep/
 

Ryan Avery

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A good mule will walk through dead fall much faster than a human. Most horses will too.
I'm not talking spooky rodeo broncs like most people have. I'm talking good mountain stock.

A goat will get stuck in between rocks along a worn jogging trail.

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No doubt a mule or horse will out walk a goat and do better in some deadfall. But there are plenty of places a mule or horse is not following a well-trained pack goat.
 

slick

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I disagree. The paper you linked says...

“M. ovipneumoniae strains carried by domestic goats were transmitted to comingled bighorn sheep, triggering development of pneumonia. However, the severity of the disease was markedly milder than that seen in similar experiments with domestic sheep strains of the bacterium.”

(Besser TE, Cassirer EF, Potter KA, Foreyt WJ (2017) Exposure of bighorn sheep to domestic goats colonized with Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae induces sub-lethal pneumonia.)

I’m not against pack goats in the slightest, just think that awareness of it is key. But to say they cant/don’t transmit disease is a lie, because they do have the potential to do so. I think it would take a special set of circumstances for pack goats to co mingle with bighorns.

Sorry to get off track...
 

Ryan Avery

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I disagree. The paper you linked says...

“M. ovipneumoniae strains carried by domestic goats were transmitted to comingled bighorn sheep, triggering development of pneumonia. However, the severity of the disease was markedly milder than that seen in similar experiments with domestic sheep strains of the bacterium.”

(Besser TE, Cassirer EF, Potter KA, Foreyt WJ (2017) Exposure of bighorn sheep to domestic goats colonized with Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae induces sub-lethal pneumonia.)

I’m not against pack goats in the slightest, just think that awareness of it is key. But to say they cant/don’t transmit disease is a lie, because they do have the potential to do so. I think it would take a special set of circumstances for pack goats to co mingle with bighorns.

Sorry to get off track...

The thread was dead till we revived it:) Poor wording on my part. I know goats can transmit disease(I read the link I posted) but it's unlikely to kill them, that's my point. What the State's and WS state is not truthful IMO. They lump domestic goats in with domestic sheep together like there is the same number of these animals running around on public land. Nor do they state it was sub-lethal from the goats. That's not the case when domestic sheep pass on the disease to wild sheep. I also agree education is the key. Here is some good info.


https://www.pbs.org/…/running-with-the-herd-a-nature-short…/

https://trib.com/outdoors/wyoming-f...cle_3f994d3d-7334-5b27-a318-38f8a660eeba.html
 
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slick

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The thread was dead till we revived it:) Poor wording on my part. I know goats can transmit disease(I read the link I posted) but it's unlikely to kill them, that's my point. What the State's and WS state is not truthful IMO. They lump domestic goats in with domestic sheep together like there is the same number of these animals running around on public land. Nor do they state it was sub-lethal from the goats. That's not the case when domestic sheep pass on the disease to wild sheep. I also agree education is the key. But it should be truthful information.

Yeah, I certainly think the risk of pack goats passing something off is much lower than large scale sheep operations that are grazing on public lands (hopefully not along side bighorns) I don’t like to see info played up from either side. I believe that the anti pack goat people see it as a risk, and any risk to bighorn herds is a risk that isn’t worth taking sort of deal.

Speaking of states putting info out..it wouldn’t surprise me if the person who wrote the (now removed) post for Colorado doesn’t know a damn thing about it. Should come from their state Veterinarian.

As an aside- I went down a rabbit hole on BLM burro’s today; thinking they would be an interesting alternative, a happy medium of sorts, between horses/mules and llamas. Their price point is nice, but it doesn’t appear that you save much in any other expense compared to a horse. Llamas are still looking to be the best option (IMO) 2 llamas and a light pack on your back I think you’d be in business. No floating teeth, no farrier fee, 1/2 the feed of a horse, limited feed requirements (some grain), rodeos you can handle. Buddy has used Baty’s llamas and has nothing but good things to say.
 

brockel

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Yeah, I certainly think the risk of pack goats passing something off is much lower than large scale sheep operations that are grazing on public lands (hopefully not along side bighorns) I don’t like to see info played up from either side. I believe that the anti pack goat people see it as a risk, and any risk to bighorn herds is a risk that isn’t worth taking sort of deal.

Speaking of states putting info out..it wouldn’t surprise me if the person who wrote the (now removed) post for Colorado doesn’t know a damn thing about it. Should come from their state Veterinarian.

As an aside- I went down a rabbit hole on BLM burro’s today; thinking they would be an interesting alternative, a happy medium of sorts, between horses/mules and llamas. Their price point is nice, but it doesn’t appear that you save much in any other expense compared to a horse. Llamas are still looking to be the best option (IMO) 2 llamas and a light pack on your back I think you’d be in business. No floating teeth, no farrier fee, 1/2 the feed of a horse, limited feed requirements (some grain), rodeos you can handle. Buddy has used Baty’s llamas and has nothing but good things to say.

But man can a llama mean mug the hell out of you. Who wants a hunting partner that has that “go to hell” look all the time
 
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