Point Creep - is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

[Fatcamp]

Bonus points are cool until those with the loudest voices (old people) manage to get points cubed.

 

[Rich M]

Bonus points are cool until those with the loudest voices (old people) manage to get points cubed.

The folks i see whining the most are the younger guys who think they should be able to do whatever they want.

 

[NoWiser]

The folks i see whining the most are the younger guys who think they should be able to do whatever they want.

Well yeah, who is going to whine, the ones who have skewed the system in their own favor or the ones who have gotten screwed?

 

[Fatcamp]

The folks i see whining the most are the younger guys who think they should be able to do whatever they want.

Oh ya, take a look at what happened in South Dakota. Was not young people. It was people with 10-30 bonus points who whined until they got their way.

 

[Jethro]

There are hybrid systems out there too. Nothing is without it's faults. More contestants and fewer winners just means more unhappy players.

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Nothing thats been discussed here is going to change that. Impossible to increase the number of winners because its the tag quota. Its a reality that many will have to accept. For everyone wanting change to give themselves a better chance, there is somebody that has their chance lessened. While both sides simultaneously scream unfair.

I like the points. I knew going in 15 years ago that there were hunts I'd never get. I have planned around that, played the creep, and have had good hunts. I'm not a booming boomer and I'm not a max point holder, or even close. But I don't feel that I should just jump in front of people in line that have been in line for 25+ years.

I wouldn't want all random in every state and most that think that is a good idea wouldn't either after they got to experience it for a while. After 8-10 years of extremely low odds and not drawing a tag, the tag every 2-4 years with points will begin to look pretty good.

 

[realunlucky]

Nothing thats been discussed here is going to change that. Impossible to increase the number of winners because its the tag quota. Its a reality that many will have to accept. For everyone wanting change to give themselves a better chance, there is somebody that has their chance lessened. While both sides simultaneously scream unfair.

I like the points. I knew going in 15 years ago that there were hunts I'd never get. I have planned around that, played the creep, and have had good hunts. I'm not a booming boomer and I'm not a max point holder, or even close. But I don't feel that I should just jump in front of people in line that have been in line for 25+ years.

I wouldn't want all random in every state and most that think that is a good idea wouldn't either after they got to experience it for a while. After 8-10 years of extremely low odds and not drawing a tag, the tag every 2-4 years with points will begin to look pretty good.

Op asked about point creep and would it get better and the answer is hell no it will not improve in fact opportunities will decrease due to point systems.

I've personally benefited from points as a max point holder, drawn some amazing mid tier units and gotten lucky in random draws. I'm currently holding points in multiple states. Why? Because that's how the current game is played but points aren't the future. Simply put points punish more applicants than they reward. The power is always in numbers and the base is much much larger than the top in the pyramid scheme of the points game.

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[Rich M]

Oh ya, take a look at what happened in South Dakota. Was not young people. It was people with 10-30 bonus points who whined until they got their way.

I missed the SD thing. Don't really see SD as anything but a pheasant state I guess, but lotsa guys play the points there I guess



FWIW - FL has a point system for most hunting areas and we're hunting 100# whitetails in cypress swamps in 90 degree heat. Hunting an hour from home takes me 2-4 years to draw.

Nothing thats been discussed here is going to change that. Impossible to increase the number of winners because its the tag quota. Its a reality that many will have to accept. For everyone wanting change to give themselves a better chance, there is somebody that has their chance lessened. While both sides simultaneously scream unfair.

I like the points. I knew going in 15 years ago that there were hunts I'd never get. I have planned around that, played the creep, and have had good hunts. I'm not a booming boomer and I'm not a max point holder, or even close. But I don't feel that I should just jump in front of people in line that have been in line for 25+ years.

I wouldn't want all random in every state and most that think that is a good idea wouldn't either after they got to experience it for a while. After 8-10 years of extremely low odds and not drawing a tag, the tag every 2-4 years with points will begin to look pretty good.

I'm in line with this. Got in the game 4 years ago - planned on a 0 pt antelope hunt, a 5 pt hunt, and a 12+ point hunt. The system went haywire since then. Did the 0 pt, will have 3 points this year and the 5 pt hunt looks like it will be 6-7-8 points if we wait that long. That puts the crimps on the 12 point hunt and losing interest with the upcoming changes in WY.

So anyway, got 2 doe 'lopes on my doe tags. Shoulda had the buck tag for that 0 point unit. Also, got a 25 inch spread 4x4 muley on a 0 point hunt.

Thinking about going guided and getting it done, leaving the west to those who want it more.

Op asked about point creep and would it get better and the answer is hell no it will not improve in fact opportunities will decrease due to point systems.

I've personally benefited from points as a max point holder, drawn some amazing mid tier units and gotten lucky in random draws. I'm currently holding points in multiple states. Why? Because that's how the current game is played but points aren't the future. Simply put points punish more applicants than they reward. The power is always in numbers and the base is much much larger than the top in the pyramid scheme of the points game.

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I still can't see how folks are being punished? You get 10 tags for unit X, 1,000 folks apply every year. Still gonna be 990 "punished" folks. Bunch of whiners. Take 100 years for the original 1,000 folks to cycle thru if you never add another and no-one ever applies for a 2nd try. So, Johnny come firstly shows up and gets drawn - the guy with 40 years of putting this unit first got punished. Not the other way around.

I do agree that the point system will go away at some point and it will be 100% random. Mainly because there are too many folks who want to go now. Anyway - it will go to a system where someone might never pull a tag in their lifetime - even on the low tier hunts.

Then they'll still whine. But every year 10 folks will be elated to draw unit X. Same as happens now, except the folks who draw it now have some skin in the game.

The other folks will be applying en mass for various units with various numbers of hunters, never knowing if they'll draw. Kinda hard to make plans that way.

 

[Jethro]

Simply put points punish more applicants than they reward.

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If the number of people getting tags stays the same, then the number of people getting "punished" has to stay the same. Its just a matter of who gets rewarded and who doesn't.

 

[204guy]

Like said above boomers gonna boom. Accusing guys of whining because they point out they or others are at a severe disadvantage in a system they had no voice in setting up. And they're whiners for pointing out it's a broken system. All them boomers gonna be long gone when the average age of tag holders in certain places is 85 years old.

Here's a pic of a ponzi scheme, maybe (doubtful) it will help some understand how those who got in on the ground floor are "advantaged" and how those entering now are are disadvantaged.

 

[cal30_sniper]

If demand is the problem, why isn't anyone talking about reducing demand? If the state goes to a system that only allows you to buy points or apply for a hunt on an odd or even year depending on your birth date then the odds of drawing a tag just improved significantly- for the year of everyone's application. Probably not a popular option, but it would increase the odds and slow point creep for a while.

Because people aren't interested in reducing demand, they're interested in shortcutting the system and magically increasing their personal draw odds. Which isn't going to happen.

You wouldn't believe the amount of G-B-C that happens in my random draw state when people spend 20 years not drawing a tag that they keep applying for with .01% draw odds.

Actually, you probably would believe it. Regardless, people in general have a pretty poor grasp of how statistics apply to individuals.

 

[realunlucky]

If the number of people getting tags stays the same, then the number of people getting "punished" has to stay the same. Its just a matter of who gets rewarded and who doesn't.

Not sure of your logic here.

Applications are increasing across the board leaving more people to be rejected by the process.

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[j_volt]

If NR elk tags were open to the free market, what do you all think an average elk tag would cost? $2,500?

Tag prices are going to continue to rise and I am interested to see how high they will go.

 

[cal30_sniper]

If NR elk tags were open to the free market, what do you all think an average elk tag would cost? $2,500?

Tag prices are going to continue to rise and I am interested to see how high they will go.

I think I said it about 10 pages ago: Put point prices (non-refundable) at the same cost as tags, and you probably fix the point mess.

Or you at least make enough money for the Game & Fish Departments to buy welfare ranchers off the public land and actually restore habitat for increased tag distribution.

 

[j_volt]

The folks i see whining the most are the younger guys who think they should be able to do whatever they want.

The young folks are not happy because our parents waited longer to rub their genitals together, and we cannot be at high point levels since the game started too soon for us.

 

[Fordguy]

I think I said it about 10 pages ago: Put point prices (non-refundable) at the same cost as tags, and you probably fix the point mess.

Or you at least make enough money for the Game & Fish Departments to buy welfare ranchers off the public land and actually restore habitat for increased tag distribution.

I would be all for this. More land appropriated for public use and funds from tag and point sales used to purchase it. Overgrazing ruins the land for any other purpose, for a year or longer depending on several factors. Anyway more land= more opportunity= more point holders cashing in- except for those who just buy points and sit on them.

The state I live in has fairly limited public land and the wildlife dept has been attempting to purchase more as it goes up for sale. Somehow the legislature passed a bill limiting the amount that the wildlife dept can purchase and the way that they can buy it. Disappointing.

 

[Jethro]

Like said above boomers gonna boom. Accusing guys of whining because they point out they or others are at a severe disadvantage in a system they had no voice in setting up. And they're whiners for pointing out it's a broken system. All them boomers gonna be long gone when the average age of tag holders in certain places is 85 years old.

Here's a pic of a ponzi scheme, maybe (doubtful) it will help some understand how those who got in on the ground floor are "advantaged" and how those entering now are are disadvantaged.

View attachment 301686

Everyone remember this on July 1st. You're sucker if you buy WY pref points. So please nobody buy them.

 

[cgasner1]

The boomer thing is funny that you guys seem to think that’s the problem. I will be 34 next month and have hunted in 8 states and killed bulls in 4 of them. All public ground no guides. This is a business for the agencies that manage the animals the points are not going away the best thing that can happen is a bonus system of some sort instead of a preference. You guys need to build a plan if you want tags and stick with it I really hope you are managing your 401k a lot better than your tag application or your gonna have some serious issues


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[Chrisamx]

The OP said it should not take 20 years to draw a tag. How will it get rid of the issue that it takes 20 years to draw some tags? You will just create a different problem where different people will not draw the tag and complain about it.

People will always complain, but if the playing field is level,the complaints will be less and of little substance. On the other hand, the points systems are manufactured by the States to make States money. It is a lottery, basically. It is not done to make happy hunters since most hunters are not happy with it.

Couple of years ago I wrote to the CADFW and explained my take on their point system and you know what, they agreed it wasn't fair. They also stated they didn't feel they could change it without making Max Point Holders angry. So they will keep catering to small group of Elitist (max point) hunters. They are a guaranteed income.

Maybe the solution to this is not to end points altogether, but examine other ways to make it seem more fair to all participants. Possibly a 50-50 solution, at least here in California so that everyone applying can feel that they have a chance.

 

[cal30_sniper]

So they will keep catering to small group of Elitist

That's very non-California of them.

In all seriousness, your idea to split between point/non-point draw percentages is a good solution. Unfortunately that is already in place for a lot of states, and it doesn't seem to most on here any happier.

 

[Chrisamx]

Everyone who hasn't been standing in line is screaming about fairness...

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You presume a lot about others. Let me presume a little about you then. You're a self centered person who doesn't give a rats ass about other sportsmen and woman, nor the future of the Hunting. Is that fair? See, it's easy to attack messenger rather than discuss the issue.

You don't know how long I've been in line for, you don't. I've been hunting for forty-seven years and remember the days before the State divided us. I also apply in other States as well. Maybe I don't spend as much as others, but its a nice hunk change. I will continue to do so, while continuing to pursue a system that doesn't put all the hope in a small elite group that changes only incrementally year after year.