Point Creep - is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

stonewall

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what would help the most is if we could recover species to the abundance they once were...elk and bison across most of the lower 48. 40 million pronghorn at the start of the 19th century vs maybe 1 million now. course that's just dreaming

I burned my CO elk points this year. I really wanted to chase another unit, but doubted I'd ever catch it
 

sndmn11

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Morrison, Colorado
Out of curiosity do you believe there may be other factors at play regarding these units? In one unit I'm aware of that used to take 3-4 points for archery some were drawn out at 1. This hunt used to be a very high quality hunt but From personal experience in the unit the decrease in points needed is due to both an increase in tag numbers and a considerably lower quality hunt than in years past.

The ones I had been watching didn't have a big change or any change in tag numbers. I goofed and had put my dad in for a 2nd season elk hunt based on the last several years stats for that particular hunt code second was slightly easier than third to draw. This year that unit had a bit higher difficulty in first and second season drawing, while that third season tag that I thought would go up and subsequently be harder to draw, went down a full point and a quarter. There were a few buck deer tags that went down a point or down in their percentage drawn out, the rest of the ones I keep an eye on followed their past fairly linear rise for residents.

I can only guess the why of any of those.
 
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Feb 17, 2017
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Plenty of spots to hunt OTC or 0 pt draws.
There has been "point creep" for a long time...since you are new to the game it just impacts you more.
Have patience or hunt OTC/low pt draw units....or better yet...both.

I do 50-67 aps in 17-20 states a year. Lots of chances...but always have fall back options to get the number of hunts i want to get done in the fall/winter/spring. You need to have a multilayered approach or you will just be sitting on your hands waiting to hunt next year. "didnt draw my unit this year...looks like im not hunting"...wow do i hear that a lot from people.

There are a few people in AZ that have 32 points...that means they have been putting in for a sheep tag since the year you were born and have yet to draw. That is patience.
Look - I know this topic has been beat to death but it real has me losing sleep.

I’m 33, 2 kids with the typical costs of life for people at my age so I’m not dripping cash. That said - I started the points game about 5 years ago with the idea of getting more and different opportunities than just OTC tags. Never with the idea of getting a “glory” tag. Hell I haven’t even shot an elk despite hunting them 7 years....

All I’m hearing is point creep.... I drew a WY gen elk last year with 3 points and I’m already hearing it took 4 this year on average and 3 on the special. I cannot wait to get back there but I’m looking at an uphill climb.

I’ve also been eyeing a unit in CO that I thought I’d be able to draw by 5 points but now it’s up to 7. I’m currently invested in CO, WY, AZ and always apply in NM and Kentucky.

This is just a few anecdotes - and not meant as a whoa is me type post - but more of a general question of where does it stop? I mean is it a matter of the boomer generation aging out of hunting? Is it a total change in state systems to total lottery? Is there no fix? I just get a bit pessimistic as I see more and more states and units slowly creeping out of reach for me. I’m an opportunity hunter - I don’t need a trophy, I just need encounters with animals.

I’m curious what others thoughts are? Will it get worse before it gets better? Will it get better? Will it balance out and hit a new “normal”? All we hear about is hunting getting less and less popular yet drawing tags is getting harder and harder. It just doesn’t add up.
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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I would rather have a chance every year than a guaranteed chance at some date in the future.
That's always been the great thing about CO for both residents and NR's.......having that chance every year with OTC tags, and also being able to save points for a guaranteed draw tag in the future......best of both worlds. But I wouldn't expect those OTC tags to stay around too much longer with the hoards of new people flooding to hunt elk in the West.
 

AZ8

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That's always been the great thing about CO for both residents and NR's.......having that chance every year with OTC tags, and also being able to save points for a guaranteed draw tag in the future......best of both worlds. But I wouldn't expect those OTC tags to stay around too much longer with the hoards of new people flooding to hunt elk in the West.
In Arizona, there are trends that indicate our OTC deer tags will go the way of the dodo bird sooner than later. I suspect in 3-5 years all deer tags will be a draw.

Just too many people here now and NR participation increasing, then add a perpetual drought, its almost inevitable.
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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In Arizona, there are trends that indicate our OTC deer tags will go the way of the dodo bird sooner than later. I suspect in 3-5 years all deer tags will be a draw.
I can't even remember what year Colorado went to all draw for deer, I think it was in the 90's. In the 80's it was really easy to find big bucks every year.......that was just the expectation back then. Then they had a really bad winter kill year or two and it changed the entire landscape for deer in CO. I pretty much stopped hunting deer at that point.
 
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You're definitely entitled to that opinion. In my view, the PP systems are a huge money-maker for states and they will go further in that direction, rather than move away from them.
it might make money from the people who have been putting in for ever and are committed to winning a hunt when they are in a wheel chair, but people who havent been donating money for ever will most likely not start to since they are so far behind. In alaska you used to be able to put in for 1 hunt per animal. Now to make more money off it they allow people to put in for 6 tickets per animal. So instead of getting 5 bucks per person for an animal they could get 30 per animal. Ya its a random lottery and a person could pull a delta bison tag on their first go at it and piss off some older people. I think a random draw would get far more money when your able to put in for an animal multiple times in a single year. I hope i never have to deal with that point crap up here.
 

YZF_88

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Jun 9, 2014
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I do not think points are worth it. Your trying to hit a fast moving target. If I could get a refund for all my points, I would do it and be happy hunting general units moving forward. I have had great general hunts. If you want to gamble on occasion, do for a random draw tag.
 

Fordguy

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How would you say there is very little push back from NRs? Introduced wolves to MN,Wi,MI? You know they never left right?
There was a wolf reintroduction (2018) on Isle Royal, and wolves have made the trip across the winter ice (sometimes with a little swimming) to the U.P. mainland in the past. No reason to believe it isn't still happening as island populations grow.
 

5MilesBack

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it might make money from the people who have been putting in for ever and are committed to winning a hunt when they are in a wheel chair, but people who havent been donating money for ever will most likely not start to since they are so far behind.
That seems to be a popular perception with a lot of folks.........the all or nothing mentality (gotta put in and save my points for that 30 point unit). When in reality, there are several lesser point units worth hunting as many times as you can in a lifetime.
 

mproberts

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I do not think points are worth it. Your trying to hit a fast moving target. If I could get a refund for all my points, I would do it and be happy hunting general units moving forward. I have had great general hunts. If you want to gamble on occasion, do for a random draw tag.
I think the point (no pun intended) is that in the future points will be necessary for hunts that are now general or otc options. It seems like the writing is on the wall that all big game will eventually be draw only, it's almost undeniable for NRs. It's not ideal but I wouldn't be too worried if you are just the average guy that can only take off a few weeks a year to hunt.
 

Rich M

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That seems to be a popular perception with a lot of folks.........the all or nothing mentality (gotta put in and save my points for that 30 point unit). When in reality, there are several lesser point units worth hunting as many times as you can in a lifetime.

Part of it is that many folks only want 1 or 2 or maybe a handful of hunts in a lifetime. I fall into that category - checked the antelope box on a doe hunt - stupid me, now I gotta go again. Checked the mule deer box in one trip. Never really wanted to hunt elk but buddy might be wanting to go, so may do that once too. Then pretty much done w traveling hunting. Western hunting is easier than what I have to do in the FL swamps. Something about being able to see animals before they appear in your front pocket.

Started in my late 40's. Could have started saving points when was younger and had 10-20-30 points for a primo, low pressure or migration hunt instead of playing tag with folks in a 0 point unit. Had no idea. But that's my fault and I don't blame the system like many do.

Waiting for the WY and FL draw results to see what happening this fall.
 

BBob

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There are a few people in AZ that have 32 points...that means they have been putting in for a sheep tag since the year you were born and have yet to draw. That is patience.
11 to be exact, they'll draw out before long but there are 188 lined up right behind with 31 points. It'll take quite awhile to clear the 188 out. Everyone else? Good luck and pray you get lucky in the random. If you're a non-res you're pretty screwed with odds no matter how many points you have and if you're just starting out points will likely not ever amount to much. Treat it like a NM application, cross your fingers, pray and hope to get lucky.

Non-res w/31 sheep points (30 non-res hold 31 pts). Statistically it will be ~27-30 years before they draw out.
Res w/31 sheep points. Statistically it could be up to 8 years to draw out.

The Strip mule deer odds aren't any better. Gould's turkey is right up there with sheep odds now which seems ridiculous but it is what it is.
 
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204guy

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Far as I can tell. The biggest problem with most of the point systems is that apparently our schools suck badly at teaching math.
Except MT NR. Clearly in that situation a couple people got together dropped some LSD and emerged with the MT draw.
 
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