Point systems

Fordguy

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Admittedly, I'm not experienced with very many state's point/draw systems for big game hunting. I've only been applying in Wyoming, and when I have applied for units that were a guarantee for my points the year before, I didn't draw because the unit magically required 1.5 or more points than I applied with (point creep 101)
My question is this- why is there such a high limit on "max points"?
Wouldn't a better solution be to have a low limit on max points (say 4 points for example) with the requirement that you must apply in the draw at least every other year (or even every year) or your points drop back to zero?
I'm sure guys with 14 points would hate this, but for a young hunter (just for the record I'm not a young hunter) starting out in the point game- knowing he has 20 years before he can even expect the possibility of a hunt in a specific area is discouraging.
Something like this allows point based advantage but still keeps people on more even footing. Essentially its a use it or lose it proposition, rather than a sit and accumulate proposition.
 

realunlucky

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The whole purpose of points is to reward those who have applied the longest. Points systems aren't the same and vary state to state. Learn the system

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ckleeves

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Max points is dictated by how long the draw system has been in place, not a number set by F&G. The states with a “hybrid” draw system where a certain % go to high points and a % go into a random pool are very fair IMO.

New comers get a chance at tags, and guys that have been in for 2 decades will eventually (maybe?) be rewarded.

A hard cap like 4 points would do away with point creep but create pool creep where every year more guys enter that “max point” pool and dilute draw odds. There wouldn’t be enough tags for everybody with 4 points to draw out, so the next year the guys who had 3 are now in the 4 point pool etc until you have so many guys it’s just a random draw with lousy odds and you could be in for 20 years and never draw while seeing guys that have only been in for 4 draw out.

At that point you may as well go 100% random like NM or Idaho which is also fine by me.


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roadrunner

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The whole purpose of points is to reward those who have applied the longest. Points systems aren't the same and vary state to state. Learn the system

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I would submit the whole purpose to a point system is to keep a certain "trophy quality" in an area by greatly reducing the amount of tags and then the reward goes to those who wait the longest - makes it easier to sit on the side lines longer when the probability of a 210" mule deer or a 395" bull is likely.
 
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Fordguy

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I can see the pool creep issue with limited max points, but with mandatory applications every year or every other wouldn't it spread out the pressure and make the draw odds a more realistic representation of your chances when you apply for the following year? Seems that would help with the accuracy of odds even if you didn't limit max points. Obviously some people are going to apply in different units from one year to the next, no avoiding that. I've applied in different units every year myself. Part of the fun is hunting new areas.
 
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Fordguy

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As far as keeping certain areas for "trophy potential" the number of tags per unit wouldn't need to increase. The only increase would be in the number of people who stood an even chance of drawing one of those limited tags.
 

Mighty Mouse

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I would submit the whole purpose to a point system is to keep a certain "trophy quality" in an area by greatly reducing the amount of tags and then the reward goes to those who wait the longest - makes it easier to sit on the side lines longer when the probability of a 210" mule deer or a 395" bull is likely.
I think you've got the causality backward. The number of points required to draw a trophy unit tag is high because the number of tags available is (relatively) low. As far as I know, demand for a particular tag has no bearing on the number of tags the state chooses to issue. Tag quotas are determined by population estimates and management objectives, not by how many people want the tag. In other words, the supply of trophy unit tags (tag quota) is fixed and demand is high, so the price (points required to draw) tends to be high.

Edit: I think I misinterpreted your post. I stand by my comment, but after re-reading your post I think we're already in agreement about the purpose/cause & effect of a points system.
 
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roadrunner

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I think you've got the causality backward. The number of points required to draw a trophy unit tag is high because the number of tags available is (relatively) low. As far as I know, demand for a particular tag has no bearing on the number of tags the state chooses to issue. Tag quotas are determined by population estimates and management objectives, not by how many people want the tag. In other words, the supply of trophy unit tags (tag quota) is fixed and demand is high, so the price (points required to draw) tends to be high.
Not really. San Juan LE bull early season any legal weapons hunt in Utah as an example...
 

j_volt

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I like the idea of required applications. There is a person in Arizona with 31 elk points and the next person has 27... WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?
Points are very valuable to these states. I am grateful for NM and Idaho not converting to points, but I have to assume they will one day. Points can be really big money makers (but some states still haven't legalized and taxed sports gambling and weed, so what do I know?)!

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WCB

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Limiting "MAX" points wouldn't really do much...you would just have more guys with max points. Some states I believe you do lose your points if you don't apply or buy a point every other year. Guys that just buy a point aren't in the draw anyways.

Make sure you are talking about the right points also...Bonus vs. Preference
 

realunlucky

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Not really. San Juan LE bull early season any legal weapons hunt in Utah as an example...
What are you saying? People want to hunt this unit because quality is excellent and yes tag are limited to small number. Very few tags drives the number is points it takes to draw.

Points are not a consideration for how many tags are issued in Utah and that is a fact.

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roadrunner

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What are you saying? People want to hunt this unit because quality is excellent and yes tag are limited to small number. Very few tags drives the number is points it takes to draw.

Points are not a consideration for how many tags are issued in Utah and that is a fact.

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The point system keeps particular players in the game for whatever reason a unit has to offer something. Again, the longer the wait, the greater the reward so a point system is an incentive and allows quality to maintained.

Probably trying to say the same thing in different ways.
 

def90

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I suspect that there are many people stuck on the idea that they need to hunt one specific unit because that is “the” unit that everyone talks about and it is the unit to hunt all while passing up other units that would likely give just as good of a hunt. It becomes a thing, everyone wants and has to hunt “unit 4” (or whatever) mostly for the ability to say they drew the tag and hunted 4. In the mean time they could have hunted several other units that for whatever the reason do not carry the cachet.
 

dieselchessy

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Point systems are for Revenue generation.
They get them in place by purporting a benefit of allowing preference for those who show loyalty.
Hunters get all confused and start proposing these ideas to make it better when they forget the primary reason is for Revenue generation.

Points make money every year without a large impact on game populations. They keep players in the game. The systems are set up in different ways to bait in and keep interest of hunters so they keep spending the money.

Its just like casino's, lotteries, store loyalty cards, restaurant punch cards, coupons, ect.... There to draw you in and separate you from your money.
 

Rich M

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I see points as getting in line - like getting the number at the deli counter. Same thing - first come first served. the way it should be.

Shot a couple antelope on a 0 pt hunt and a nice 160-inch muley on a 0 pt hunt. Planning to hunt antelope again and muley another time to help buddy get his.

My actual plan - 6 pts for antelope in WY - 3 guys going w avg of 5+ pts. 2024 I think. Then to collect points for the next 12-15 years and reward myself with a nice antelope hunt - the last western hunt I ever wanna do. Folks have called me selfish that I'm not gonna hunt for 12-15 yrs in order to have a better hunt and I'm the guy with the problem. LOL!

The point system is really tough for folks who think they are special. If they truly want it bad enough, they'll start collecting points and get in line. If you don't like the point system in one state - try another one - or get a private land voucher - there are other options if you have the extra $ to spend.

I just can't see the fairness in someone who applies once and gets a permit while some fellow has been applying for 10-15-20 yrs and hasn't drawn it yet. Just sayin.
 

Glockster26

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I like some states better the others. ID and NM are doing it right. If you are going to have point system Wyoming should be the model. Systems like CO are trash. There are units in CO that my 12 year old won’t be able to draw until he is100+.
 

LostArra

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Point systems are for Revenue generation.
^^^This
Anyone complaining or suggesting changes about a point system should re-read this sentence.

G&F does not care who hunts or who kills the game or what is "fair" as long as the populations are managed and a stream of dollars is flowing into the department. Learn to play their game and enjoy your hunt.
 

5MilesBack

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I'm sure guys with 14 points would hate this, but for a young hunter (just for the record I'm not a young hunter) starting out in the point game- knowing he has 20 years before he can even expect the possibility of a hunt in a specific area is discouraging.
Why would he/she/you think that they are entitled to hunt that specific area? There are some units that issue so few tags, and there are so many people with higher points chasing that tag, that even most of them won't even draw it in their lifetime........let alone some 12 year old that just started this year. It would be idiotic for anyone just starting the points game (speaking CO here) to expect to hold out until they can draw a 20+ point unit. Heck, at this point, just holding out for a 5-10 point unit is getting unrealistic. There's just too many people jumping into the pool at the same time. As with everything......people are the problem.
 

Glockster26

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Why would he/she/you think that they are entitled to hunt that specific area? There are some units that issue so few tags, and there are so many people with higher points chasing that tag, that even most of them won't even draw it in their lifetime........let alone some 12 year old that just started this year. It would be idiotic for anyone just starting the points game (speaking CO here) to expect to hold out until they can draw a 20+ point unit. Heck, at this point, just holding out for a 5-10 point unit is getting unrealistic. There's just too many people jumping into the pool at the same time. As with everything......people are the problem.
I don’t thing anyone is saying that they are entitled to hunt a certain area. Colorado is a disaster. As you stated if holding out to a 5 to 10 point unit is now unrealistic from most hunters the system is broken. The guys that are holding out for a max point unit I hope they get too old or blow out a hip or knee before and ever get to use those and die with their points. That would be the ultimate irony.
I am have points in four western states, while not a max point holder if someone snapped their fingers and said everything‘s going to a random draw I wouldn’t be pissed about it. Its the selfish old curmudgeon‘s that feel entitled just because they have been buying into a Ponzi scheme the last 30 years that they are entitled to have first dibs.
 
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