Point systems

[Fordguy]

Entitled? No one is entitled, and everyone is entitled. It's public land, and we all own it (in some cases). Plain and simply put, there's probably a better way than putting certain areas permanently out of reach for people who don't get in on the ground floor by building points for 20-30 years or more.
You said it yourself -"There are some units that issue so few tags, and there are so many people with higher points chasing that tag, that even most of them won't even draw it in their lifetime"-
"Better" is a subjective term, so what may be better for you may not be better for most.
And yes, points are a revenue source, im not suggesting a reduction in revenue, only that there could be a better way to manage the system.

 

[Chad E]

The guys that are holding out for a max point unit I hope they get too old or blow out a hip or knee before and ever get to use those and die with their points. That would be the ultimate irony.

Wow. I dont have max points anywhere but I don't wish injury or death on folks that do.

 

[5MilesBack]

Its the selfish old curmudgeon‘s that feel entitled just because they have been buying into a Ponzi scheme the last 30 years that they are entitled to have first dibs.

Actually, they are entitled........just as soon as they have enough points to draw that tag. They are many many more times entitled than someone just starting in on the points game. But at least with CO, you can get a relatively good calculated idea when you might draw a specific unit, which makes your decisions easier.

I have 5 elk points, and that's after turning in my tag last year. I know that my odds of drawing any of the NW units for archery bull in my lifetime is pretty much 0%. No problem. I also know that my odds of drawing 61 are getting worse every year, and even if I did eventually draw it.......I'd be 70+. That leaves 76 as the next in line possibility, but after not getting a point this last year, I'm most likely looking at 6+ years before I could even have a chance. That's an easy pass for me. I'd rather draw a tag every few years than hold out for one specific tag, unless I'm within just a couple years of drawing it.

 

[Glockster26]

Wow. I dont have max points anywhere but I don't wish injury or death on folks that do.

Hope was probably the wrong word to use. I enjoy irony and even dark irony probably too much.
Chasing a unit and building points your entire adult life and then being too old or dying before you get to use those points it’s a bit of dark irony I could enjoy, even if it happened to me.

 

[def90]

The simple solution would be to disallow anyone living east of I25 from hunting west of I25.. ;D

 

[5MilesBack]

Entitled? No one is entitled, and everyone is entitled. It's public land, and we all own it (in some cases). Plain and simply put, there's probably a better way than putting certain areas permanently out of reach for people who don't get in on the ground floor by building points for 20-30 years or more.

You can't have it both ways........but there you go again in your last sentence above speaking entitlement. Ya, everyone is entitled to hunt a specific unit........as long as they have a tag. I know for a fact that I will never be a member of the Augusta National Golf Club. But I'm not going to complain about it. Not all things in this world are available to everyone, yet I can golf on 1000's of other different courses around the country. No problem, that's easy to accept.

And those people just getting into the points game can access public land just like everyone else. They just can't "hunt" the animals on said land without a tag. And if they REALLY think they need to hunt the animals in "one specific unit", I know for a fact that cow tags are readily available in unit 201 in CO. You'll still most likely have to use a point or two, but that's very doable. Yet getting a bull tag in that unit is very unlikely for 99%+ of the population. No problem, there are many many other units to hunt elk in CO, with many of those units taking ZERO points to draw.

 

[Fordguy]

Actually, they are entitled........just as soon as they have enough points to draw that tag. They are many many more times entitled than someone just starting in on the points game. But at least with CO, you can get a relatively good calculated idea when you might draw a specific unit, which makes your decisions easier.

I have 5 elk points, and that's after turning in my tag last year. I know that my odds of drawing any of the NW units for archery bull in my lifetime is pretty much 0%. No problem. I also know that my odds of drawing 61 are getting worse every year, and even if I did eventually draw it.......I'd be 70+. That leaves 76 as the next in line possibility, but after not getting a point this last year, I'm most likely looking at 6+ years before I could even have a chance. That's an easy pass for me. I'd rather draw a tag every few years than hold out for one specific tag, unless I'm within just a couple years of drawing it.

I'm in the same boat, or the same camp. The only thing I use high point units for is to save up a few points for a low point unit while hoping for a second choice unit. There's almost zero chance that I'll ever have enough points to hunt many units in my lifetime, unless I plan to maintain my current level of fitness until I'm 115. I'm ok with that, but I'm not a spring chicken either. What doesn't sit well is the thought that someone who doesn't start building points at the age of 12 (or whatever the minimum age is in the point system of your choice) may never have a realistic chance to hunt certain areas while those "certain areas" are growing in number.

 

[5MilesBack]

Chasing a unit and building points your entire adult life and then being too old or dying before you get to use those points it’s a bit of dark irony I could enjoy, even if it happened to me.

You know, it's possible with the lottery draws in other states that many people could put in for a lifetime and never draw a specific unit. Is there the same dark irony for you to enjoy in that as well????

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I like some states better the others. ID and NM are doing it right. If you are going to have point system Wyoming should be the model. Systems like CO are trash. There are units in CO that my 12 year old won’t be able to draw until he is100+.

Which Colorado units do you foresee eventually requiring 100 points to draw? Must be some pretty easy terrain if it can reasonably be hunted exclusively by centenarians.

At a point accumulation rate of 1 per year, I don't see the point requirements for even the very best units ever growing much beyond ≈50 given average human lifespan and the fact that many hunts require a decent level of physical health/strength. Last year, the hardest-to-get Colorado elk tag required 29-30 points for a non-resident. Point totals required to draw ultra-highly sought after tags have recently tended to creep upward 1 point per year, but that point requirement can't grow infinitely; somebody has to draw the tag(s) every year and everybody eventually gets too old to hunt (or dies).

I personally have no desire to chase ultra-premium Colorado tags, but I don't begrudge those who do. If/when a guy finally draws such a tag, he earned it with his patience (and cumulative application fees). I like Colorado's system because it allows me to plan out my future elk hunts with some degree of confidence. That confidence may come in the form of: "I'll die before I ever have a chance at drawing such and such tags, so there's no point in trying, I need to set my sights elsewhere."

 

[Glockster26]

Actually, they are entitled........just as soon as they have enough points to draw that tag. They are many many more times entitled than someone just starting in on the points game. But at least with CO, you can get a relatively good calculated idea when you might draw a specific unit, which makes your decisions easier.

I have 5 elk points, and that's after turning in my tag last year. I know that my odds of drawing any of the NW units for archery bull in my lifetime is pretty much 0%. No problem. I also know that my odds of drawing 61 are getting worse every year, and even if I did eventually draw it.......I'd be 70+. That leaves 76 as the next in line possibility, but after not getting a point this last year, I'm most likely looking at 6+ years before I could even have a chance. That's an easy pass for me. I'd rather draw a tag every few years than hold out for one specific tag, unless I'm within just a couple years of drawing it.

I gotcha. I really think Azzie last section of

You know, it's possible with the lottery draws in other states that many people could put in for a lifetime and never draw a specific unit. Is there the same dark irony for you to enjoy in that as well????

Not as much....

 

[Fordguy]

Time and money = entitlement. So the kid who starts out dirt floor poor but loves to hunt, continues that love of hunting until he's old enough to make something of himself in this world and starts putting in for points as soon as he is financially stable enough to do so is less entitled than someone who had the ability to buy his way in at an earlier age? Love your train of thought. Based on what you're saying you're fine with keeping guys like that at a distance and never allowing them to regain even footing (and an even chance- even if it is one that they have to accumulate a certain number of points for) during the course of their lifetime.
We're all entitled to a chance, no one should be entitled to a guarantee. (The guarantee that others can not ever put themselves on even footing and have the same chance in the same units). Just my thoughts, and I'm fine with folks disagreeing with me. I'm not advocating on my own behalf. While I think certain high point units might be fun to hunt, I'm not what most would consider a trophy hunter.
Feel free to try to change my mind. You might succeed, you might not, but a well reasoned discourse is always appreciated.

 

[def90]

I don't know, there are 49 other states and a hundred other units left to hunt in that 50th state.. seems like the term entitled could be used in a couple different ways.

Basically what you are saying is everyone in the entire country that wants to is entitled to be able to hunt that one unit. There is nothing realistic about that idea at all unless you believe in a scorched earth policy.

 

[Fordguy]

Not at all. Im just saying that at some (reasonable) point in their lives they should be able to have an equitable chance to draw a tag.
Currently with point creep an 18 year old kid could (possibly) start buying points and never catch up (in some units) since there are an awful lot of kids whose parents start buying them points as early as possible. Even worse for someone who starts buying points in their 20s or 30s.

 

[CorbLand]

Which Colorado units do you foresee eventually requiring 100 points to draw? Must be some pretty easy terrain if it can reasonably be hunted exclusively by centenarians.

At a point accumulation rate of 1 per year, I don't see the point requirements for even the very best units ever growing much beyond ≈50 given average human lifespan and the fact that many hunts require a decent level of physical health/strength. Last year, the hardest-to-get Colorado elk tag required 29-30 points for a non-resident. Point totals required to draw ultra-highly sought after tags have recently tended to creep upward 1 point per year, but that point requirement can't grow infinitely; somebody has to draw the tag(s) every year and everybody eventually gets too old to hunt (or dies).

I personally have no desire to chase ultra-premium Colorado tags, but I don't begrudge those who do. If/when a guy finally draws such a tag, he earned it with his patience (and cumulative application fees). I like Colorado's system because it allows me to plan out my future elk hunts with some degree of confidence. That confidence may come in the form of: "I'll die before I ever have a chance at drawing such and such tags, so there's no point in trying, I need to set my sights elsewhere."

I don't know about Colorado but in Utah there are definitely units that if the status quo stays the same will be at 100 points in 74 years or sooner.

Arguably the worst elk unit in Utah took about 6 points to draw archery and had a 15-30% success rate. They changed that unit up this year so hopefully that helps but when I started applying for it, you could draw with 3 points and I never caught it. Even the average units in Utah are pushing 10 points to draw archery.

I have noticed that the majority of people that support point systems either live in a state that has good OTC opportunity or are non residents of states they apply in.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I don't know about Colorado but in Utah there are definitely units that if the status quo stays the same will be at 100 points in 74 years or sooner.

I'm not as familiar with Utah's system. Assuming you can only gain 1 point per year in Utah, you'd have to be at least 100 years old to have accumulated 100 points. I think it's unlikely that any unit in any state will ever be dominated by 100-year-old elk hunters. In the case of Colorado's premier tags, I expect that the current 1 point per year creep rate will eventually slow down and required point totals will stabilize as the average age of high point holders increases and those holders begin cashing in their points (i.e., the point creep status quo will not stay the same indefinitely).

Arguably the worst elk unit in Utah took about 6 points to draw archery and had a 15-30% success rate. They changed that unit up this year so hopefully that helps but when I started applying for it, you could draw with 3 points and I never caught it. Even the average units in Utah are pushing 10 points to draw archery.

I'm not denying that point creep exists or that many tags are out of reach for many guys. I am denying that these aspects of a point-based draw system are "unfair."

 

[wayoh22]

I'll just give my $0.02 here...I think this is an interesting topic and have appreciated the discord here. As someone who is 27 and starting to research points and draws and what not for out of state hunts, it's hard to sift through all the information of all these states and try to figure out if it's worth it. I think it's a bit of wishful thinking to say "I wish I had started when I was younger" or that "I wish my parents bought me points" for whichever state. The ladder statement is more of an example of entitlement in its purest form. But there are many good points in the previous posts here. Anyone can do an OTC hunt. It may not be a trophy unit but if that's what you're after then I think you need to be prepared to realize what it takes to get that if you're going to play the tag game. No one is making anyone play the game.

I think a big problem is the amount of effort and finances that has to go into planing it or "attempting" to plan it since you're not always guaranteed a tag when you have enough points. Is there a better way to do it? I'm not sure. Maybe. Maybe not. These agencies need funds to run on and if they get them from applications and tags then so be it.

 

[Fordguy]

How could a unit require 100 points to draw when average life expectancy is 78?

 

[BuzzH]

Hope was probably the wrong word to use. I enjoy irony and even dark irony probably too much.
Chasing a unit and building points your entire adult life and then being too old or dying before you get to use those points it’s a bit of dark irony I could enjoy, even if it happened to me.

Why bitch about it? Use it to your advantage.

I really like that there are some areas that people hold their points for 20-30-40 years...keeps them from hunting every year, and allows those that know better, to draw "lesser" tags more often.

I've drawn 4 lesser Arizona rifle bull tags, I hope more people chase those top areas and hunts.

 

[Dos Perros]

I like the idea of required applications. There is a person in Arizona with 31 elk points and the next person has 27... WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?
Points are very valuable to these states. I am grateful for NM and Idaho not converting to points, but I have to assume they will one day. Points can be really big money makers (but some states still haven't legalized and taxed sports gambling and weed, so what do I know?)!

View attachment 267800

That guy with 31 is on the sidelines. He does not represent present demand for tags. If he applied, he would undoubtedly take a hunt away from someone with less points.

 

[roadrunner]

I like some states better the others. ID and NM are doing it right. If you are going to have point system Wyoming should be the model. Systems like CO are trash. There are units in CO that my 12 year old won’t be able to draw until he is100+.

What hurts with NM is when you go 20 years without drawing a tag...