Point systems

BuzzH

Senior Member
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
1,596
Location
Wyoming
I agree that if states made it mandatory to front the tag fees there wouldn't be high point holders. I'll play devil's advocate here but if states did make that mandatory don't you think that would somehow shut off/affect the "availability"/ "ability" (using these terms very loosely here) of those that don't have the finances?

Again, there are always OTC opportunities but if draw tags just become outright unaffordable to apply for every year for the average joe then does it make it some elitist thing?

I'll even counter my own devils advocate argument and say that it's not the states problem to worry about an individuals financial situation.
Finances for what in particular?

What it would do is make hunters prioritize instead of plastering the West/Mid-west with applications for points only.

Instead of applying for points for ALL species in 8-10+ states a year, maybe only 1-2-3 states and maybe only some species instead of all.

Wasn't that long ago you had to front the money, and points required to draw were a lot lower, IME.
 

wapitibob

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
3,922
Location
Bend Oregon
For $50 you can get a tag but they're "making it impossible to have the option to hunt often and affordably for their average citizen" ?
 

CorbLand

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
2,644
For $50 you can get a tag but they're "making it impossible to have the option to hunt often and affordably for their average citizen" ?
That is not what I said. I said I was advocating for unlimited OTC tags so their citizens could have an option to hunt often and affordably. My friend was advocating for the standard 15,000 state wide tags. I disagree with states limiting opportunity for their residents. My argument is not the cost, its the number of available tags.

Utah wanted to go to unlimited OTC elk tags. I supported that because, if they did that then anyone that wanted to could hunt elk every year for 50 bucks.
 
Last edited:

wayoh22

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
505
Location
Connecticut
I am going to catch flak for this

I personally think that its a states duty to provide their residents with afford hunting opportunities and reasonable odds of obtaining tags. I use affordable and reasonable in the terms of the average joes ability. I recognize that prices need to increase over time and support that but I do not think that a government should operate like a business and follow a supply/demand curve to set pricing. I recognize this causes scarcity and all the problems we are seeing today.

OTC options are not always available. There are very few states that have OTC options for deer. Most states have decent options for elk but even at that, most aren't great. With the demand they are seeing, they are basically a draw hunt just trying to get one purchased. It luck of the draw not getting kicked out of the computer system.

I come at this from Utah and base my opinions on what I see in Utah. Some states are better but I am a resident of Utah. States owe non residents nothing.

I had this argument with a buddy over the OTC unlimited elk tags Utah wanted to do. I support it because it provides an opportunity for people to hunt every year. Success rates are garbage, lots of people but for 50 bucks, I can have a tag. He was against them because the amount of elk that will be killed. I love this kid to death but him and his wife make a very good income for his age. 6 digits in Northern Utah gets you a lot. He is a couple years older than me and was able to take advantage of the housing prices. Now, no where am I complaining that I dont make what he does or that I don't have the financial freedom he has. I made the choice to go into the career I have and knew what it meant as far as pay. What frustrates me is that he told me that "anyone can afford to hunt out of state if they make it a priority" which I agree with but what I disagree with is the state I am resident of making it impossible to have the option to hunt often and affordably for their average citizen. It frustrates me when everyone looks at their own situation and says everyone is just like me and can do exactly what I can do. It is simply not true.
I agree with all of this. As a nonresident, I'm of the belief another state owes me nothing. As a CT resident I can essentially hunt whitetail from Sept 15th-Jan1 for $39 with unlimited tags essentially (there are rules to this). But I agree with what you've said.
 

wayoh22

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
505
Location
Connecticut
Finances for what in particular?

What it would do is make hunters prioritize instead of plastering the West/Mid-west with applications for points only.

Instead of applying for points for ALL species in 8-10+ states a year, maybe only 1-2-3 states and maybe only some species instead of all.

Wasn't that long ago you had to front the money, and points required to draw were a lot lower, IME.
Finances to cover applications/tags. I realize I gave a vague argument so don't dwell too much into it. Just keeping the discussion going.

But yes, I agree it would make hunter prioritize which I think it's a good thing.
 

5MilesBack

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
12,703
Location
Colorado Springs
Not at all. Im just saying that at some (reasonable) point in their lives they should be able to have an equitable chance to draw a tag.
Currently with point creep an 18 year old kid could (possibly) start buying points and never catch up (in some units) since there are an awful lot of kids whose parents start buying them points as early as possible. Even worse for someone who starts buying points in their 20s or 30s.
Your posts are the definition of "entitlement" or "handout". What is it about this country in recent years that has people clamoring for "equity" instead of equality??????? That kind of thinking is ruining America in every aspect of our society.

I will use one particular unit in CO to show you the lunacy of your assertion. Unit 201 archery elk.........there are 8 tags available to the public (7 resident and 1 NR). You needed 24 and 28 points respectively to guarantee the draw of one of those tags last year. But the real kicker here is the number of tags.........8 + 2 landowner vouchers. So at those numbers, in the next 20 years........160 people out of every American in the country will get one of those tags. And that's over 20 years. Yet, you want or expect every kid or adult that has never applied for a PP in their lives to have the same access to those tags as those that have applied, paid, and waited in the PP line for the past 20+ years? Sheesh......there is no argument for that because it's so ridiculously outlandish.

If those people REALLY believe they are entitled to one of those tags that they haven't paid their dues for, and certainly don't deserve........then they can fork over the $15k+ for one of the two landowner vouchers.

I was born and raised in CO and could have hunted the so-called best units in the state multiple times over by now, but I never have. I never saw the point (irony) of collecting a ton of points for one particular unit when I could hunt a bunch of other units with great hunting for a heck of a lot less points. I also never felt like I had any entitlement to hunt any of those top units even though I've been a CO resident for almost 56 years. Just existing doesn't give any of us an entitlement to hunt any specific unit.........having enough points and drawing the tag gives us that entitlement.
 
Last edited:

Dos Perros

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2015
Messages
2,881
Location
Lenexa, KS
Adding rules that preclude the poorest Americans from taking part in a resource they themselves own is such a vile concept I can't believe I see it openly posted and supported here.
 

5MilesBack

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
12,703
Location
Colorado Springs
Adding rules that preclude the poorest Americans from taking part in a resource they themselves own is such a vile concept I can't believe I see it openly posted and supported here.
What rules preclude the poorest Americans from taking part in a resource they own?????? And how many of these "poorest Americans" have smart phones, and TV's, cigarettes, alcohol, pot, etc, etc???? All you have to do is travel the world just a bit, and you'll see that "poor" Americans is an oxymoron.
 

j_volt

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
278
Location
Missouri
It would be interesting to see how many people are participating in multiple states. If each person had to pick only one state to play the game, that may change things drastically.
 

Dos Perros

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2015
Messages
2,881
Location
Lenexa, KS
What rules preclude the poorest Americans from taking part in a resource they own?????? And how many of these "poorest Americans" have smart phones, and TV's, cigarettes, alcohol, pot, etc, etc???? All you have to do is travel the world just a bit, and you'll see that "poor" Americans is an oxymoron.

Rules requiring people to front the money for tags for the purpose of excluding the poor from applying.
 
OP
F

Fordguy

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
255
Your posts are the definition of "entitlement" or "handout". What is it about this country in recent years that has people clamoring for "equity" instead of equality??????? That kind of thinking is ruining America in every aspect of our society.

I will use one particular unit in CO to show you the lunacy of your assertion. Unit 201 archery elk.........there are 8 tags available to the public (7 resident and 1 NR). You needed 24 and 28 points respectively to guarantee the draw of one of those tags last year. But the real kicker here is the number of tags.........8 + 2 landowner vouchers. So at those numbers, in the next 20 years........160 people out of every American in the country will get one of those tags. And that's over 20 years. Yet, you want or expect every kid or adult that has never applied for a PP in their lives to have the same access to those tags as those that have applied, paid, and waited in the PP line for the past 20+ years? Sheesh......there is no argument for that because it's so ridiculously outlandish.

If those people REALLY believe they are entitled to one of those tags that they haven't paid their dues for, and certainly don't deserve........then they can fork over the $15k+ for one of the two landowner vouchers.

I was born and raised in CO and could have hunted the so-called best units in the state multiple times over by now, but I never have. I never saw the point (irony) of collecting a ton of points for one particular unit when I could hunt a bunch of other units with great hunting for a heck of a lot less points. I also never felt like I had any entitlement to hunt any of those top units even though I've been a CO resident for almost 56 years. Just existing doesn't give any of us an entitlement to hunt any specific unit.........having enough points and drawing the tag gives us that entitleme
Have you read my posts? I'm not arguing against a point system. I'm saying that there's probably a better way. I realize that you're stuck on the whole its mine and I save up it line of thought, and you're not wrong. If that line of thinking makes you happy, by all means stick with it.

A max point cap would allow people to catch up at some point in their lives. Cap it at 10, 15, 20. Whatever. If the average lifespan determines the max points then eventually anyone who draws in some units will be too old to hunt anyway.
Am I saying that's the only solution? No. Am I saying that its better than what we have now? It might be. Would we have pool creep (as someone referred to it earlier)? Probably. But new hunters would at least have the chance for even odds at drawing certain units in their lifetime.
 
OP
F

Fordguy

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
255
As far as "my posts are the definition of entitlement or handout" you should probably rephrase that if you want to be accurate though that doesn't appear to be the case.
I've never suggested that anyone be given anything they didn't work for or earn. I suggested that applicants be given the chance to catch up via a cap on max points. Not that they automatically jump to first place in the points race.

I don't believe I've posted anything on the transition and what would have to happen before a new system or changes to the current systems could take place.
 

CorbLand

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
2,644
A max point cap would allow people to catch up at some point in their lives. Cap it at 10, 15, 20. Whatever. If the average lifespan determines the max points then eventually anyone who draws in some units will be too old to hunt anyway.
Am I saying that's the only solution? No. Am I saying that its better than what we have now? It might be. Would we have pool creep (as someone referred to it earlier)? Probably. But new hunters would at least have the chance for even odds at drawing certain units in their lifetime.
This wont work because more and more people will just pile into the capped max point pool. If more people are in the max point pool than available tags, it becomes a random draw for the tags available with a pool of the top point holders.

If you said capped max points is 20 and available tags are 50 with 100 people at 20 points and 100 people at 19 points. 50 people in the 20 point pool will draw, leaving 50 people with 20 points still. Then those that gain a point from 19 to 20 get combined into the max point pool. The next year you would have 150 people in the max point pool competing for the same 50 tags. At this point, bag the point system and go straight to random because that is what it would be.

I guess you could make an argument that it would increase the draw odds for a short length of time because less people would be competing for the top point pool allocated tags but it would be a short term fix.
 
Last edited:
OP
F

Fordguy

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
255
I'm not saying that there's a perfect solution. If there were a cap on max points, the more people that reach max points, the longer the odds will be for the pool, and yes in a random draw for those at max. Everyone at max would have the same draw odds. Though strictly speaking, if you're at max the more draw cycles you go through the more chances you have to be drawn. If you have a mandatory application (or loss of points for everyone who doesnt apply every so often) some people will apply in other units and leave the pool, some people will draw for that unit and leave the pool. Others will hold on until they actually draw the tag.
Some people will just be irked that there's a cap on max points (if such a thing were to happen) and some people will go off the deep end upon hearing the suggestion of such a dastardly thing.
 

CorbLand

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
2,644
I'm not saying that there's a perfect solution. If there were a cap on max points, the more people that reach max points, the longer the odds will be for the pool, and yes in a random draw for those at max. Everyone at max would have the same draw odds. Though strictly speaking, if you're at max the more draw cycles you go through the more chances you have to be drawn. If you have a mandatory application (or loss of points for everyone who doesnt apply every so often) some people will apply in other units and leave the pool, some people will draw for that unit and leave the pool. Others will hold on until they actually draw the tag.
Some people will just be irked that there's a cap on max points (if such a thing were to happen) and some people will go off the deep end upon hearing the suggestion of such a dastardly thing.
The longer you stay in the max pool your possibility of drawing increases but as more people come in, your probability of getting drawn decreases.

If you throw a dart at a dart board the possibility of getting a bullseye increases with each throw but if the bullseye gets smaller each time, the probability of hitting it decreases.

What you’re suggesting would work for a short term but it’s basically a complete lottery draw with extra steps. You’re treating the symptoms not solving the problem.
 

wayoh22

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
505
Location
Connecticut
I think all in all just so this thread doesn't get too out of control is that for the time being, we have to play the hands dealt to us. If you're late to the points game, cool. Start as soon as you can if you want to go that route and chase certain states, areas, tags...

If you're holding points and doing your thing, then that's just as cool too. Keep going and hopefully you get what you're after.
 

CorbLand

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
2,644
I think all in all just so this thread doesn't get too out of control is that for the time being, we have to play the hands dealt to us. If you're late to the points game, cool. Start as soon as you can if you want to go that route and chase certain states, areas, tags...

If you're holding points and doing your thing, then that's just as cool too. Keep going and hopefully you get what you're after.
If my posts are coming off rude, that is not my intent, at all.

I agree that we all have to play the cards we are dealt and I apply for and purchase points to the extent that I can afford. But until I am dead and in the ground, I will always disagree with point systems and advocate against them.

If you are dead set on having a points system. The best, in my opinion, is a bonus point system. Basically, a random draw but your name is in the hat for as many times as you have applied but not drawn. Everyone has an equal possibility of drawing but those that have applied longer have a higher probability of their name being pulled.
 

wapitibob

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
3,922
Location
Bend Oregon
I can see some tweaks here and there over time. They could get modified to spread a few out like AZ did with the loyalty and hunter ed points but those even out after a few years. They might modify the point and random draw ratios to get more of the high point guys thru the system and maybe change preference points to bonus points to help the random side. But, points aren’t going away.
 

DanimalW

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
80
I prefer the bonus point system. At least you always have a chance and that chance gets better with each year. The standard PP system does not guarantee your chance gets better each year, but the odds a point holder will pony up the money for another point each year probably does increase...
 
Top