Point systems

Traveler

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Dec 20, 2020
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some point systems are better than others, but what I have never understood is the ability to just buy a point without applying for a hunt.
In CO it should be if you hunt an A tag, including OTC, no points that year.
 

5MilesBack

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The current points system is like running a marathon, except that half of the runners get a 25k head start. Curently its a Marathon with an uncertain finish line, and leaders with such a head start that few people catch up. New runners are starting back at the beginning every year even less people catch up as time goes by.
Actually.......the point system is like a whole series of races. Some units are a marathon........and others are a short sprint. But you should never want or expect to slow the others down so you can catch up, just because you were late to the race. The whole point I'm making is that everyone is free to join whatever race they want, but they certainly shouldn't expect to win those marathons if that's the race they choose to enter. There's a whole lot of other races out there that anyone can "realistically" enter and eventually win. And currently, the marathons are a once in a lifetime race (whether they draw or not), whereas some of the sprints can be won several times. It's all about "choosing wisely". But the great thing is.......whether someone is entering one of the points races or not.......there's nothing stopping any of these people from hunting elk every year. Problem solved.

It's like someone as the new kid in Romper Room......they get to play with all the toys except the "high demand" ones because there's a wait list for those toys, and there's a heck of a lot of other kids that are already on that list ahead of them. Just because they don't like the way that daycare has set it up, doesn't mean that the daycare should change the way they do things. But people will be people.......just look at Adam and Eve.
 
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Danomite

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New Mexico
My biggest fear is dying with unused points. If it does happen, I give anyone on Rokslide permission to use my identity to get a tag (just don't vote for Biden with my identity).
Please pm me your login info for each state in which you have points, your home address, and the approximate time you leave for work. JK.
 
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Fordguy

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I think you need to reevaluate what entitlement and handout means. Everything you've been posting is "what about all those less fortunate to have been born now instead of 20 years ago, so they have no points, and there needs to be a way for them to have an EQUAL chance at being able to draw one specific unit of their choice". THAT is the definition of entitlement and handout. Think of it this way.......you want to "hobble" those that have already been running and competing for years by stopping them from getting any more points, just so others can catch up and have an equal chance of winning the race. Does that sound familiar with some other things that are happening in society and government today? That's like joining a marathon that's been going for some time and expecting the race coordinators to tie all the leaders legs together until you can catch up to them. That's not even a race worth winning or running at that point because either way it was a handout to some.

You want them to have an equal chance at whatever unit they "want", when there are literally hundreds of other units available to them to hunt. This isn't a perspective thing.......this is a logic thing. If you really want what you say you want........then NM is your answer. "But I want a unit outside of NM.........." SMH

Actually.......the point system is like a whole series of races. Some units are a marathon........and others are a short sprint. But you should never want or expect to slow the others down so you can catch up, just because you were late to the race. The whole point I'm making is that everyone is free to join whatever race they want, but they certainly shouldn't expect to win those marathons if that's the race they choose to enter. There's a whole lot of other races out there that anyone can "realistically" enter and eventually win. And currently, the marathons are a once in a lifetime race (whether they draw or not), whereas some of the sprints can be won several times. It's all about "choosing wisely". But the great thing is.......whether someone is entering one of the points races or not.......there's nothing stopping any of these people from hunting elk every year. Problem solved.

It's like someone as the new kid in Romper Room......they get to play with all the toys except the "high demand" ones because there's a wait list for those toys, and there's a heck of a lot of other kids that are already on that list ahead of them. Just because they don't like the way that daycare has set it up, doesn't mean that the daycare should change the way they do things. But people will be people.......just look at Adam and Eve.
I was referring to people playing the points game for a specific unit. One unit, one game. Or maybe a few games if someone is holding out for multiple high point units. That does bring up an interesting thought. Different point caps for different units depending on demand and number of tags available? Probably just adding complexity where it isn't needed.
And you don't need to explain to me about kids waiting for a toy. The romper room analogy isn't a good one either. Those kids on the end of the waiting list would be in highschool or college before they got a chance to play with the romper room toys. That's why teachers make sure that everyone gets a chance to play with the highly desired toy at some point. It almost seems like you made my point for me with that example.
I spent several years working with special needs children at an elementary school. It taught me to look at situations from as many different angles and points of view as possible- which is what I'm attempting here.

Sure there are low point units, and otc elk in Colorado but I never limited the topic to elk. There are low point and otc antelope and deer units in other states as well and plenty of chances for success. In the past 5 years Ive watched 0 to 1 point units go to 3 and 4 point units.

You said earlier that I keep repeating the same things- my points are valid and you haven't invalidated them yet. Give me a more compelling argument. Change my mind. Any system will have it's drawbacks, I'm just wondering what would best for the largest group of applicants. I doubt that aging out of the system while waiting to draw sounds like a good idea to anyone. And you're right that people can pick a different lower point unit, which will help to increase the points required in that unit. It all rolls downhill.
What about a preference point cap with bonus points earned after the cap? Enter the drawing with so many preference points, but your name goes in extra times for each bonus point after the cap. That way the guys at the top of the point ladder retain an advantage but the new guys who reach the cap can still enter? Just a thought.
 

realunlucky

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Yeah not going to happen. Research how each states system work and only apply for those that fit into your idealistic approach.

Many states have hybrid point system so those that have less than max still have an opportunity to draw.

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wapitibob

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"I was referring to people playing the points game for a specific unit. One unit, one game. Or maybe a few games if someone is holding out for multiple high point units."

These people can do what they want but simple math and a little research will tell most of them it's a foolish endeavor. I don't have a lot of sympathy when they start bitching about the inability to draw a tag.

You keep bringing up point caps; they do nothing. Eliminating points does the same thing, ie a straight random draw and everybody is "capped" at 0 points. If that's what you want, say so. A first time applicant has the same chance as an old timer.
 

Rich M

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I like the ability to plan hunts. Points gives me the ability to select a better unit at a given time. We got 3 guys trying to come together from 3 states to land in WY for an antelope hunt in a non-combat hunting scenario. That takes 5+ points IMO. We're hitting 3 this year. 2024 should put us in a good spot.

I got into the game late and never ever thought I should be allowed to take a tag away from someone who has been waiting maybe decades for some overhyped hunt somewhere cause of a video online. Was taught as a kid that you wait your turn. If the line looks too long, get in a diff line.

Figure out how to make it work - get another job to make more money so you can afford a similar hunt somewhere else, wait and hope, buy a landowner tag, guided hunt on private property, there are options.

DIY public land is a fricking nightmare these days. Thankfully hunter numbers are in the decline...:rolleyes:
 

5MilesBack

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You said earlier that I keep repeating the same things- my points are valid and you haven't invalidated them yet. Give me a more compelling argument. Change my mind.
Obviously I'm not going to change your mind when you keep advocating for hobbling, slowing down, or outright holding the others in place..........until everyone else catches up to them. Thank you for your explanation in working with special needs kids, that explains it. But fortunately, most of the rest of the world isn't comprised of special needs people where those techniques are encouraged or even accepted.
 
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Fordguy

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At some point you'll have to remove your head from whatever dark crevace you've wedged it into. You're dealing with a limited public resource/opportunuty and at some point it becomes more about what's good for the majority of applicants and less about what benefits you personally. It's funny. I've seen a lot of entitled children, and their sentiments echo yours. They're also the ones who cry the loudest when they lose their advantage and have to play on a more level field. Go figure.
 

slick

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Ford guy- have you checked out how CO does their Mtn Goat draw? Or how SD does their deer draw?

Out of curiosity give those two a look and maybe that’ll hit at what you’re getting at.


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CorbLand

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At some point you'll have to remove your head from whatever dark crevace you've wedged it into. You're dealing with a limited public resource/opportunuty and at some point it becomes more about what's good for the majority of applicants and less about what benefits you personally. It's funny. I've seen a lot of entitled children, and their sentiments echo yours. They're also the ones who cry the loudest when they lose their advantage and have to play on a more level field. Go figure.
I will say that I have always got a crack out of this. Most of the people that I know personally that are in support of point systems say its because they want to "at some point be guaranteed a tag" but if you make a comment about some other things, they are the first to tell you that there are no guarantees in life.

I made a comment about Utah killing elk in the rut with rifles and how that needed to change. An older gentlemen that I work with told me that "as long as I get my tag before then, I don't care what they change after." The kicker is that this guy has told me on numerous occasions that my generation is "so entitled."

Utah extended ~20 bison tags a couple years ago because the weather that year pushed them off state/federal land and onto tribal land early. The success rate on that hunt was extremely low and a bunch of the hunters complained that they weren't aware it was migratory hunt, even though it was stated as that on the website biology notes. They complained that they waited for 20 plus years to get that tag and it sucked to not fill it. Go watch the wildlife board meeting and tell me what age bracket the majority are in.

This is one of the major reasons I hate point systems. People apply for years, get their participation trophy each year and then think that when they have enough they are owed something.
 
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Rich M

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We could go back to the old way of doing stuff - first come first served - in person. 1 tag per person.

How long would folks camp out for the tags?
 

BBob

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The only group more entitled than hunters are hunters with points.
They were given a list of rules, they've been following those rules and in some cases for near 30 yrs. Do you really think they are going to let that go without a fight? :)
 

j_volt

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They were given a list of rules, they've been following those rules and in some cases for near 30 yrs. Do you really think they are going to let that go without a fight? :)
That's the problem... Moving the goalposts when you start under a certain set of rules. I have seen middle aged women yelling at Applebee's employees over coupon interpretation. The stakes are higher with western hunting.
 
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Fordguy

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Ford guy- have you checked out how CO does their Mtn Goat draw? Or how SD does their deer draw?

Out of curiosity give those two a look and maybe that’ll hit at what you’re getting at.


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Weighted preference is calculated by converting your application number into
a different, random application number, then dividing that new application
number by the number of weighted points you have, plus one. Individuals
with three preference points and no weighted preference will have their ap-
plication number divided by one.

I just skimmed this- how does the random application number translate into a predictable value for your weighted points?
The weighted point system after maxpoints does sound similar to what I thought might be a good idea- bonus points (meaning you get your name in the drawing one extra time for each bonus point) after you've reached the point cap.

I honestly didn't start this thread with the intention of offending people. I started it after seeing a lot of guys complaining about the point systems, and I started looking at some of the point creep trends... Maybe there's a better way, maybe there isn't. Sometimes you don't know for certain unless you give it a try, or two, or three. I don't mind the thought of a random draw at all.
 

JoeC hunts

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I play the point game all over the west, and have for many years now. I also apply for tags in states with random draw. With random draw you at least have some hope of drawing, however slim it may be. Point creep is the frustration of many a hunter.I know many don't like Utah's draw system, however it does offer hope of drawing a tag in most cases. The best draw strategy is to find one or two,you feel offer the best opportunity for you. And out a couple you understand and are comfortable with. It can be a long road for sure, but the destination is wonderful.
 
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