Pro Public Land Transfer Fallacies

Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
1,067
Location
Helena, MT
This is a cross post from a member over at Hunt Talk which I feel is a good argument against public land transfer. Please don't turn this into a D vs R pissing contest. Federal public lands are highly valued by both sides of the political spectrum.

FEDERAL PUBLIC LANDS TRANSFER FALLACIES

1. FALLACY: STATES HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO THOSE FEDERAL PUBLIC LANDS; THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO OWN PUBLIC LANDS.
The Wallace Stegner Center at the University of Utah completed a legal analysis which concludes that Utah has no legal right to the lands it demands and furthermore the federal government has Constitutional authority to retain federal public lands, a conclusion borne out previously in US Supreme Court decisions. Link to Analysis
2. FALLACY: PUBLIC LANDS WILL REMAIN AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC ACCESS AND MULTIPLE USE.
State constitutions, such as that of Montana, predominantly mandate that state owned lands produce revenue as number one priority. Multiple use is secondary, if considered at all, and is typically limited. Multiple use is the keystone of federal public lands policy and the critical factor in the value to state’s citizens, as well as to the other Americans who own and enjoy that public land.

3. FALLACY: FEDERAL FUNDING WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR MANAGING THOSE STATE PUBLIC LANDS.
It is certain that taxpayers from other states more highly populated, who no longer are represented or retain ownership of the state public lands, will likewise no longer be willing to contribute tax dollars to manage other states’ lands.

4. FALLACY: EXPLOITATION OF NATURAL RESOURCES WILL PROVIDE NECESSARY REVENUE TO MANAGE STATE PUBLIC LANDS.
The Utah University system completed a fiscal analysis of financial impacts of the transfer of federal public lands to the State of Utah. The conclusion was that after the initial huge financial burden on Utah’s revenues, eventually natural resource exploitation, particularly extraction of fossil fuels, could potentially provide adequate revenues, but estimated with some uncertainty, based on the then relatively high fossil fuel prices. The paramount priority would be on fossil fuel extraction, with multiple use becoming almost insignificant. Current fossil fuel prices would significantly reduce that revenue to a management deficit.

5. FALLACY: PRESENTLY THERE IS NO LOCAL INPUT IN FEDERAL LAND MANAGEMENT DECISIONS.
By law there are publicized proposals and plans regarding federal public lands, which include public comment periods and hearings, often extended to maximize local public input opportunity, which is typically published as factors.

6. FALLACY: FEDERAL LAND MANAGEMENT DECISIONS ARE MADE IN FAR-OFF WASHINGTON, DC
Decisions, policies, and implementation are by agency personnel on-the-ground in the local areas affected. Public land managers, supervisors, rangers, officers, personnel who plan, decide, and implement policies are your neighbors and local service organization members, local youth sports team coaches, parents, PTA members, and hard working state citizens who live in your home town, people who also typically use those same public lands you enjoy.

7. FALLACY: UTILIZATION OF NATURAL RESOURCES WILL BE EASIER FOR STATES AND WILL BE BETTER MANAGED.
The assumption that state government can manage extraction of natural resources more efficiently and with fewer constraints than federal agencies is false. States are subject to the same laws and regulations imposed by Congress and now cited as hampering resource extraction from federal public lands. Furthermore, the same energy, mineral, and timber market value and trade agreement factors would impose similar constraints on state management.

8. FALLACY: THE STATE EMPLOYMENT PICTURE WILL BE IMPROVED.
The thousands of federal employees who presently contribute significantly to each state’s economy where they work and reside will be forced to undergo a transition apparently not considered to date. It is uncertain whether those positions would be terminated, would be transferred into state agencies, or would be retained. The relative compensation differences between federal and state personnel systems would create difficult challenges, peculiar to each state’s compensation system. The long-term impacts on states labor markets and employment pictures have not been clearly analyzed .
 

TJ

WKR
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
689
Location
N.E Oregon
I remember reading about something like "taxation without representation" in school.

If YOU don't CONTACT your congressman we're going to get screwed.

Thanks for the post airlock
 

kodiakfly

WKR
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
1,399
Location
Kodiak
I suggest we add a political thread or a political forum, or a place like I've seen called "The Garage" or something where stuff like this can be discussed. We're supposed to be on the same side (hunting/fishing/outdoors) but this is the third or fourth political post I've seen and it's only going to get worse if we keep it up.

If people want to go back and forth, fine, but I suggest we quarantine it or soon we'll be talking in the Backpacking forum about USA vs Chinese made gear and how that applies to tax code the trade deficit.
 

elkduds

WKR
Joined
Jun 22, 2016
Messages
956
Location
CO Springs
The political discussions I have seen on RS have been in this forum, which seems to work. OP makes sense to me.
 

topher89

WKR
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Messages
815
Location
Colorado
I suggest we add a political thread or a political forum, or a place like I've seen called "The Garage" or something where stuff like this can be discussed. We're supposed to be on the same side (hunting/fishing/outdoors) but this is the third or fourth political post I've seen and it's only going to get worse if we keep it up.

If people want to go back and forth, fine, but I suggest we quarantine it or soon we'll be talking in the Backpacking forum about USA vs Chinese made gear and how that applies to tax code the trade deficit.
Respectfully disagree. This issue needs to be on the forefront of this forum and we need to get our heads out of the sand. This issue is real and it is happening.
 
OP
airlocksniffer
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
1,067
Location
Helena, MT
I feel like this is an issue that will affect many folks, left and right. If this was pushed by the D side of Congress I'd be just as pissed. Everybody can vote how they choose, however, if you are a public land hunter, please call/email/write your reps and senators to let them know what a bad idea this is. If you are pro public land transfer please feel free to refute any of the above. Like I said, this doesn't need to turn into a pissing contest.
 

elkguide

WKR
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
4,650
Location
Vermont
Even RMEF which was SO SLOW on the wolf issue, has already come out against Federal land transfers.
 

kodiakfly

WKR
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
1,399
Location
Kodiak
Respectfully disagree. This issue needs to be on the forefront of this forum and we need to get our heads out of the sand. This issue is real and it is happening.

Yeah man, I agree. But in the past week we've gone from virtually no political posts to a few. There's left and right on this forum and that's great, but politics is seldom a unifying discussion...especially in this political climate. I just hate to see our forum turn into us vs ourselves.
Discuss away, everyone write your Congressman...I just think if we keep posting about land sell offs and people take sides it'll bleed over into other threads and a lot of forums have a dedicated place to talk politics and religion. And I'll bow out with that. I don't mean to derail this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

1signguy

WKR
Joined
Oct 6, 2016
Messages
342
Location
Prescott, AZ
Why would anyone support the placing of power over anything that can be handled at a state level with the federal government? Every state has different needs, resources, and constituent interests. Impossible for the Feds to recognize all of those differences between states. It's like having a family of fifty and asking what they want for dinner and getting mad when no one agrees on the same thing.
Keep the power as close to the people as possible so that their interests are protected.
Outside of national security there are very few things the federal government does that can't be done better by the states- land use is absolutely one of the things that should go back to the states where it most directly affect those citizens.
 
OP
airlocksniffer
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
1,067
Location
Helena, MT
Why would anyone support the placing of power over anything that can be handled at a state level with the federal government? Every state has different needs, resources, and constituent interests. Impossible for the Feds to recognize all of those differences between states. It's like having a family of fifty and asking what they want for dinner and getting mad when no one agrees on the same thing.
Keep the power as close to the people as possible so that their interests are protected.
Outside of national security there are very few things the federal government does that can't be done better by the states- land use is absolutely one of the things that should go back to the states where it most directly affect those citizens.

See 5 and 6.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Brendan

WKR
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
3,871
Location
Massachusetts
Why would anyone support the placing of power over anything that can be handled at a state level with the federal government?

Maybe because we think the states won't do much, if any, better. (Just because the federal government, in general, sucks, doesn't mean the state governments are better.) And, we think the states will get cash strapped and sell off these tracts of land to the highest bidder where we'll lose access. (See #2)

There's a good and a bad to this being a republic as opposed to a true democracy. The lands go back to the states, then the people you elected in that state are free to sell them off to their rich rancher, oil&gas, constituent donors...
 

topher89

WKR
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Messages
815
Location
Colorado
Why would anyone support the placing of power over anything that can be handled at a state level with the federal government? Every state has different needs, resources, and constituent interests. Impossible for the Feds to recognize all of those differences between states. It's like having a family of fifty and asking what they want for dinner and getting mad when no one agrees on the same thing.
Keep the power as close to the people as possible so that their interests are protected.
Outside of national security there are very few things the federal government does that can't be done better by the states- land use is absolutely one of the things that should go back to the states where it most directly affect those citizens.

Read 5 and 6 on the list and respond to those.
 
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
672
Location
Carbondale CO
Why would anyone support the placing of power over anything that can be handled at a state level with the federal government? Every state has different needs, resources, and constituent interests. Impossible for the Feds to recognize all of those differences between states. It's like having a family of fifty and asking what they want for dinner and getting mad when no one agrees on the same thing.
Keep the power as close to the people as possible so that their interests are protected.
Outside of national security there are very few things the federal government does that can't be done better by the states- land use is absolutely one of the things that should go back to the states where it most directly affect those citizens.
#6 on the list
Most of the"Feds" in my area have been here their whole lives and love the country as much as me.
 

realunlucky

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
12,722
Location
Eastern Utah
You have more faith in your state's ability to govern than mine.
When all the major factions in conversation say this is a bad idea and my state legislators say it's a great idea with lust in their eyes. I definitely would cease all action or atlest proceed slowly with extreme care.
If it's such a great idea why try and rush it though and hide the details?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Top