Question for any Lawyers...is Shelter in Place Legal

[cmahoney]

27 years experience says you're wrong but for the sake of argument; say you see a car driving down the road. Absent any other wrong doing, how do you have reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed? According to Terry, it is a consensual contact. During a "consensual" contact, the person stopped has no duty to cooperate.
"Reasonable suspicion " and probable cause are the same thing. Stopping someone just because they might be breaking a law is not reasonable and therefore an illegal stop/ detention. Just because you see someone drive away from a bar is not reasonable susoicion/probable cause for a stop to check for DUI. To make it "reasonable", you need more such as bad driving, vehicle code violation etc.

Not the same thing, probable cause for an arrest, reasonable suspicion for a detention.


Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)
Justia Opinion Summary and Annotations
Annotation
Primary Holding
Under the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, a police officer may stop a suspect on the street and frisk him or her without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."


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[87TT]

Still need more than mere driving and Terry was talking about someone walking, not in their car driving.

 

[cmahoney]

Still need more than mere driving and Terry was talking about someone walking, not in their car driving.

Let’s say you are dispatched to a burglar alarm at a commercial building at 0200 when they are closed for business. When you arrive you see a vehicle rapidly leaving the parking lot, but observe no vehicle code violations. Would you stop it? If so your stop (detention) would be based on reasonable suspicion. You definitely don’t have probable cause to arrest the driver for burglary yet.


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[87TT]

Thanks for making my point. In your case you needed more, alarm, closed business and speeding car.
We call that PC or probable cause.

 

[cmahoney]

Thanks for making my point. In your case you needed more, alarm, closed business and speeding car.
We call that PC or probable cause.

I was making my point that reasonable suspicion and probable cause are two different things. Reasonable suspicion applies to DUI stops as well


Examples of Reasonable Suspicion for a DUI Stop

Reasonable suspicion that a motorist is impaired may by established by any of the following observations:

Straddling the center line
Illegal turn
Drifting from one lane to another
Nearly hitting other cars or objects on the roadside
Extremely slow or erratic driving
Frequent braking
Stopping in the middle of the road for no apparent reason

Again, no probable cause yet.


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[cmahoney]

Thanks for making my point. In your case you needed more, alarm, closed business and speeding car.
We call that PC or probable cause.

I was making my point that reasonable suspicion and probable cause are two different things. Reasonable suspicion applies to DUI stops as well


Examples of Reasonable Suspicion for a DUI Stop

Reasonable suspicion that a motorist is impaired may by established by any of the following observations:

Straddling the center line
Illegal turn
Drifting from one lane to another
Nearly hitting other cars or objects on the roadside
Extremely slow or erratic driving
Frequent braking
Stopping in the middle of the road for no apparent reason

Again, no probable cause yet.


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[87TT]

The courts consider that "probable cause" for the stop/ detention.. Still not merely driving down the road as was stated in the post about random stops of vehicles driving during lockdown.

 

[cmahoney]

Thanks for making my point. In your case you needed more, alarm, closed business and speeding car.
We call that PC or probable cause.

Sorry, we will just have to disagree, the alarm, time of night and subject leaving rapidly would be reasonable suspicion to detain, not PC. articulable facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe the subject is involved in criminal activity, but the specific crime has not yet been established.

An example of probable cause would be finding forced entry into the building with the alarm sounding and stolen property in the suspects vehicle. Those would be articulable facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe the suspect committed a specific crime, burglary. Those facts (probable cause) would establish the elements of the crime.

The facts that established the reasonable suspicion for the detention aren’t enough to meet the elements of burglary, which is why reasonable suspicion is a lesser standard than probable cause.


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[Rmauch20]

Rhode Island hunting down New Yorkers seeking coronavirus refuge

Rhode Island plans to send the National Guard out to knock door-to-door in an attempt to hunt down anyone who has arrived in the tiny state from New York City during the coronavirus pandemic. State police, meanwhile, have begun pulling over cars with New York state plates.

www.foxnews.com

Sending NG door to door, stoping vehicles off of NY plates alone. I hope everyone that answers the door tells the NG to go play with a bowl full of dicks. The stupidity is worse then the virus.

 

[*zap*]

Once they quarantine NYC you will need 'snake' plissken to get out.....could happen pretty soon.

 

[Dos Perros]

KCK police broke up a vehicle parade:

Police disperse Kansas school social distancing parade for violating ‘stay-at-home’ order

Police broke up a driving social distancing parade of over the weekend, saying it was nonessential and violated the state stay-at-home order.

www.kake.com

 

[Billinsd]

States cannot outlaw something the Constitution guarantees.

Not legally. So, who ya gonna call?

 

[Dos Perros]

Not legally. So, who ya gonna call?

ACLU would be first. There is a long list of people willing to defend our freedoms, depending on which ones they are.

 

[Maverick1]

So.....is it legal?

 

[Billinsd]

Reasonable cause, I thought people loved stop and frisk. We all might get a taste of how the other side survives soon.

What other side? Gang members and drug dealers? I thought they're getting let out of jail now?

 

[brsnow]

What other side? Gang members and drug dealers? I thought they're getting let out of jail now?

Not a shocking post, actually predictable

 

[Mike7]

I was surprised to find out from a prison guard that they have emptyed much of at least one jail near here. I would not be surprised if there is a surge in property crimes within the next month.

I can see nonessential businesses with city licenses having to comply with city and state orders to close, but I wonder legally how that applies to a free individual, who is not harming anyone in any way by driving up the road?

What is the legal basis for imprisoning people in their homes in this manner? I mean, since more is known about this virus at this point and there appears to be zero evidence in any way that driving, hiking, bicycling, boating, etc. puts you or anyone else at any risk of getting coronavirus. Futhermore, the govt intent is not to stop this virus, but rather just to slow it down in this case. And, it is still legal to go to the grocery store, where theoretically you could expose yourself or someone else if you weren't already following all of the other precautions.

So why are people so willing to accept the nonsensical curtailing of their freedoms, when reasonable lesser alternatives are available to the govt, a govt who works for us?

I feel like there may be some legal argument here...I need lawyer assistance though to be sure.

 

[ODB]

I have to carry a letter from the government showing I am essential worker.

A kipande.

 

[DenverCountryBoy]

I have to carry a letter from the government showing I am essential worker.

I have travel papers, too.

 

[Wyatt.Carter]

We were instructed to carry letters validating our work etc. as essential... crazy for sure