Question on starting an outfitting service

[HighUintas]

My wife and I have been looking at properties for where we're going to move to when we get to leave SLC in 6 years.

It's always been a dream of mine to have an outfitting service, but always assumed it wasn't a possibility.

Anyway, the place that we do actually want to move to has a listing for a nice plot with a house and a turnkey outfitter operation... Everything needed, including the permits for areas that have established camps. It's way more affordable than I thought.

We could actually get a loan for it, but it would take some real magic to keep it running while not living there full time. And then there's the learning how to run an outfitter part.

So I've got a better chance of being struck by lightning than being able buy this place and keep it running successfully and that gets me down. I've always figured those use permits are extremely hard to get because people tend pass the operation down through the family instead of selling it. Seeing that for sale right now in the place I want to be in 6 years kinda makes me feel like I'm watching my opportunity pass by into the distance.

So what's the best way of starting one if you don't have a family member that passes it to you and haven't been guiding for ages? Especially if there's a certain region you want to start one?

 

[dtrkyman]

Your thoughts about not being able to run it not being there full time are spot on! Unless by some miracle there was somebody trust worthy to run it for you for the next six years, which is extremely unlikely!

You need to look at the total cost to run the place each year and how much you could actually bring in.

Running something like that is going to be a 24/7 commitment in my opinion, of course there is always the saying where there's a will there's a way!

 

[IdahoElk]

Outfitting for what?

 

[rayporter]

at least you will have the leases figured out!

 

[Sandstrom]

A few thoughts after running my own business for 20+ years...

Finding and doing the “work” is typically the easy part. The hard part is doing the “work” at a profit. Most unsuccessful business owners I know don’t know the actual cost of doing a job.

Employees will usually be your number one issue. Most employees don’t see the big picture.

The back end of the business (taxes, permits, insurance, payroll, marketing, and maintenance) is the hardest for most people that I know.

Being an absentee owner requires an employee that is beyond amazing. See above comment on employees.

I have seen a few people that have tried to turn their hobby/passion into a job. Most don’t have the same feelings about their hobby or passion after awhile. Some are very happy with it. I would wager that it would be extremely difficult to get out hunting when you have clients to take care of.

Not sure what your background is, but for me the thought of running a business that I (me) know nothing about from a distance is very scary.

Not knowing any of the details in your situation, I can’t directly comment on your opportunity. I can only offer some thoughts on what I have seen or learned the hard way.

Is there any way to scale it back and only rent out areas via the internet for the first few years to float it along until you can fully commit?

Not trying to be a downer, just realistic.

That being said, nothing ventured, nothing gained!! If you really want it, you can figure out a way to do it

Please let me know if you need any further advice.

Best of luck,
Ryan

 

[HighUintas]

Your thoughts about not being able to run it not being there full time are spot on! Unless by some miracle there was somebody trust worthy to run it for you for the next six years, which is extremely unlikely!

You need to look at the total cost to run the place each year and how much you could actually bring in.

Running something like that is going to be a 24/7 commitment in my opinion, of course there is always the saying where there's a will there's a way!

Yes. That is one of the few things I'd be willing to "work" on 24/7!

I always lived my life by the saying where there's a will there's a way. But my wife doesn't necessarily see it that way haha

 

[HighUintas]

Outfitting for what?

Hunting- deer, elk, moose, bear, bighorn
Horseback rides
Snowmobiling
Fishing

 

[TSAMP]

Maybe I'm just a skeptic. But I have seen way to many bars for sale that get bought, name changed and then they are for sale again within a year.

I'd ask myself why is this outfitter selling and why didn't other outfitters around them absorb those leases.

 

[HighUintas]

A few thoughts after running my own business for 20+ years...

Finding and doing the “work” is typically the easy part. The hard part is doing the “work” at a profit. Most unsuccessful business owners I know don’t know the actual cost of doing a job.

Employees will usually be your number one issue. Most employees don’t see the big picture.

The back end of the business (taxes, permits, insurance, payroll, marketing, and maintenance) is the hardest for most people that I know.

Being an absentee owner requires an employee that is beyond amazing. See above comment on employees.

I have seen a few people that have tried to turn their hobby/passion into a job. Most don’t have the same feelings about their hobby or passion after awhile. Some are very happy with it. I would wager that it would be extremely difficult to get out hunting when you have clients to take care of.

Not sure what your background is, but for me the thought of running a business that I (me) know nothing about from a distance is very scary.

Not knowing any of the details in your situation, I can’t directly comment on your opportunity. I can only offer some thoughts on what I have seen or learned the hard way.

Is there any way to scale it back and only rent out areas via the internet for the first few years to float it along until you can fully commit?

Not trying to be a downer, just realistic.

That being said, nothing ventured, nothing gained!! If you really want it, you can figure out a way to do it

Please let me know if you need any further advice.

Best of luck,
Ryan

Thanks for the advice! I don't see it as being a downer. I was once a business owner and know about all the hard parts. That business was my passion and i usually worked 65 hours a week, but it was all good. You're right... it was HARD. But I loved it. I sold my part to my partner due to management differences and I was needing to relocate.

 

[HighUintas]

Maybe I'm just a skeptic. But I have seen way to many bars for sale that get bought, name changed and then they are for sale again within a year.

I'd ask myself why is this outfitter selling and why didn't other outfitters around them absorb those leases.

I had the same thought. I'd be asking a LOT of those questions if I pursued it

 

[mlgc20]

Maybe I'm just a skeptic. But I have seen way to many bars for sale that get bought, name changed and then they are for sale again within a year.

I'd ask myself why is this outfitter selling and why didn't other outfitters around them absorb those leases.

This would be the most important piece of due diligence I would be concerned about. Too many small business owners sell because they know they are about to lose a big customer, or a competitor is moving in or whatever. Make sure the leases are locked in in writing.

Also, I would have their accounting audited by a professional. Those guys can spot fishy stuff a mile away. If they don't have anything "official" I wouldn't do the deal. But, that's just me.

Lastly, I would do an honest assessment of what the property and home that are included are really worth. Just thinking worse case scenario, what equity would you have if you needed to sell and couldn't find someone willing to buy the outfitter piece. In other words, make sure you have a clear understanding of what part of the price you would be paying for the land/house asset and what part is for the outfitter business asset.

Best of luck!

 

[IdahoElk]

Hunting- deer, elk, moose, bear, bighorn
Horseback rides
Snowmobiling
Fishing

My experience in knowing 4 different outfitters in my area, 3 of them get by with 100% hands on involvement with family helping in addition to hired hands, the fourth is rich and doesn't seem to care about making a profit, has a large staff, overhead, fancy trucks etc., not the real world.

When not actively guiding clients Outfitters in the off season are usually traveling the country attending outdoor shows trying to book customers.
Not sure you can do all this part time without paying employee's a competitive wage to run the business without you?
Being an Outfitter is extremely hard work from my experience and I couldn't imagine doing it unless you were there.
Not trying to kill your dream.

 

[Justinjs]

A few thoughts after running my own business for 20+ years...

Finding and doing the “work” is typically the easy part. The hard part is doing the “work” at a profit. Most unsuccessful business owners I know don’t know the actual cost of doing a job.

Employees will usually be your number one issue. Most employees don’t see the big picture.

The back end of the business (taxes, permits, insurance, payroll, marketing, and maintenance) is the hardest for most people that I know.

Being an absentee owner requires an employee that is beyond amazing. See above comment on employees.

I have seen a few people that have tried to turn their hobby/passion into a job. Most don’t have the same feelings about their hobby or passion after awhile. Some are very happy with it. I would wager that it would be extremely difficult to get out hunting when you have clients to take care of.

Not sure what your background is, but for me the thought of running a business that I (me) know nothing about from a distance is very scary.

Not knowing any of the details in your situation, I can’t directly comment on your opportunity. I can only offer some thoughts on what I have seen or learned the hard way.

Is there any way to scale it back and only rent out areas via the internet for the first few years to float it along until you can fully commit?

Not trying to be a downer, just realistic.

That being said, nothing ventured, nothing gained!! If you really want it, you can figure out a way to do it

Please let me know if you need any further advice.

Best of luck,
Ryan

Couldn't agree more.

Running any business from a distance and not already knowing the details will be a headache.

We do long term rentals and always consider vacation rentals (think Florida or s.c.), then you factor in catastrophic issues (plumbing, HVAC, damage from previous guests), travel expenses, listing, guest problems, ect.. all of this becomes a headache and not profitable for the amount of money you have tied up in it. I'm convinced vacation rentals make little to no profit as a sector.
Hobby's are great, but when you try to pass off a hobby as a business, that's when you lose money. Be honest with yourself, do you have any experience with running a business, what knowledge do you have on outfitters, how well do you know THAT area?

The good news, real estate and businesses go up for sale every day and there are always deals out there. Don't get too emotional about these things, that's when bad decisions are made.

 

[HighUintas]

The good news, real estate and businesses go up for sale every day and there are always deals out there. Don't get too emotional about these things, that's when bad decisions are made.

This part is what I was mainly wondering about.

I was primarily hoping someone that's in that industry would say don't worry about it, if you want to start one when you can move there, the use permits aren't too hard to get so work hard on it then.

The part about actually getting the use permits for a good area is what I'm not sure about

 

[Justinjs]

This part is what I was mainly wondering about.

I was primarily hoping someone that's in that industry would say don't worry about it, if you want to start one when you can move there, the use permits aren't too hard to get so work hard on it then.

The part about actually getting the use permits for a good area is what I'm not sure about

I wish I knew more about outfitters to help. The real estate side is about as far as I can go.

Maybe a good starting point is researching it, there has to be some books out there on the subject. Similarly, we always want a vacation rental (we could use it as well), but many factors kill that "want" real quick. My point is to let the financials make the decision, not the "i want it" be the deciding factor.

For real though, property comes for sale every day. If this one goes away, there will be another. Who knows, you might learn more than you think and just go start your own.

 

[14idaho]

I owned and operated a hunting outfit in Idaho for 12 yrs. Bought an outfit that owner was retiring. No clientele, no guides, very little equipment, no stock, you get the picture. I had no practical experience other than long line trapper and hunter. Let me say this: there's a lot going on behind the scenes you need to realize. Idaho has a guide board you need to deal with. There are both good and bad in this. Also, if your on forest service land they can be difficult. An example I can share is this. One season they can into camp and didn't like that we used dead lodgepole pine trees for our corral. So they cut them up and made us get a firewood permit. $25.00 but they did this in season with hunters in camp. So here we are in a pack in camp with hunters running a chain saw. Not a good thing. Our area was good enough hunting that we had no problem getting clients and several of the clients booked every year. Hardest part is finding good help, especially a cook. Looks like you have cabin to work out of which should help. We were all pack in camps which requires a ton of work. Looking back, I should have done it when I was younger, takes a lot out of you. Would I do it again? In a moment. In fact I'm actually considering doing so. I'd say go for it or spend the rest of your life wishing you did.

 

[14idaho]

I owned and operated a hunting outfit in Idaho for 12 yrs. Bought an outfit that owner was retiring. No clientele, no guides, very little equipment, no stock, you get the picture. I had no practical experience other than long line trapper and hunter. Let me say this: there's a lot going on behind the scenes you need to realize. Idaho has a guide board you need to deal with. There are both good and bad in this. Also, if your on forest service land they can be difficult. An example I can share is this. One season they can into camp and didn't like that we used dead lodgepole pine trees for our corral. So they cut them up and made us get a firewood permit. $25.00 but they did this in season with hunters in camp. So here we are in a pack in camp with hunters running a chain saw. Not a good thing. Our area was good enough hunting that we had no problem getting clients and several of the clients booked every year. Hardest part is finding good help, especially a cook. Looks like you have cabin to work out of which should help. We were all pack in camps which requires a ton of work. Looking back, I should have done it when I was younger, takes a lot out of you. Would I do it again? In a moment. In fact I'm actually considering doing so. I'd say go for it or spend the rest of your life wishing you did. I

 

[14idaho]

I owned and operated a hunting outfit in Idaho for 12 yrs. Bought an outfit that owner was retiring. No clientele, no guides, very little equipment, no stock, you get the picture. I had no practical experience other than long line trapper and hunter. Let me say this: there's a lot going on behind the scenes you need to realize. Idaho has a guide board you need to deal with. There are both good and bad in this. Also, if your on forest service land they can be difficult. An example I can share is this. One season they can into camp and didn't like that we used dead lodgepole pine trees for our corral. So they cut them up and made us get a firewood permit. $25.00 but they did this in season with hunters in camp. So here we are in a pack in camp with hunters running a chain saw. Not a good thing. Our area was good enough hunting that we had no problem getting clients and several of the clients booked every year. Hardest part is finding good help, especially a cook. Looks like you have cabin to work out of which should help. We were all pack in camps which requires a ton of work. Looking back, I should have done it when I was younger, takes a lot out of you. Would I do it again? In a moment. In fact I'm actually considering doing so. I'd say go for it or spend the rest of your life wishing you did. I

Don't know why it posted twice. Sorry

 

[HighUintas]

I owned and operated a hunting outfit in Idaho for 12 yrs. Bought an outfit that owner was retiring. No clientele, no guides, very little equipment, no stock, you get the picture. I had no practical experience other than long line trapper and hunter. Let me say this: there's a lot going on behind the scenes you need to realize. Idaho has a guide board you need to deal with. There are both good and bad in this. Also, if your on forest service land they can be difficult. An example I can share is this. One season they can into camp and didn't like that we used dead lodgepole pine trees for our corral. So they cut them up and made us get a firewood permit. $25.00 but they did this in season with hunters in camp. So here we are in a pack in camp with hunters running a chain saw. Not a good thing. Our area was good enough hunting that we had no problem getting clients and several of the clients booked every year. Hardest part is finding good help, especially a cook. Looks like you have cabin to work out of which should help. We were all pack in camps which requires a ton of work. Looking back, I should have done it when I was younger, takes a lot out of you. Would I do it again? In a moment. In fact I'm actually considering doing so. I'd say go for it or spend the rest of your life wishing you did. I

Thanks.

I'm 34 now. When we move to the place we plan to go, I will likely be doing a huge career change anyway, because my field just isn't available in really small towns. So, I could definitely give it a go when I get there and see what happens!

I'm sure there are a lot of facets to the business I wouldn't think of... Like the FS chainsaws happening in your camp!

For some more info, this outfit operates on public land with temporary use permits for all their operations. My wife knows a bit about these permits having started and ran a climbing/mountain festival for a number of years on FS land, so just not specifically for hunting. She also was an outdoor rec minor in college, so learned a bit about it through that.

Maybe I'll email the owner with a few questions just to see what information they are willing to share.

My wife has the $$ brains, so she's able to keep my "want" in check haha

 

[mtnbiker208]

A buddy moved from back east to Wyoming and started guiding business in the star valley. He had one client his first year. He does consider himself a modern day mountain man and is always doing something to make a buck. It could be flying planes around for people, guiding, running his fish camp, ect. HE has been doing if for about 15 years. If you are willing to make a plan, work at it, think long term, you can do it. And yes, employees will be the biggest headache you ever had. But you can't do it with out them.