Red dot on upland gun?

Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
19
Hey guys,

somewhat entertaining the idea of putting a speed bead and fast fire on my benelli m2 for doves, pheasant, and waterfowl. Sometimes when I rush my shot I don’t get the entire way down and shoot high I believe. I’ve read the red dot can alleviate that. This true? Anyone prefer a dot over stand beads?

or is there an aftermarket bead that may help? Thought I remember years ago a bead that didn’t show unless you were completely down on the stock

TIA for any input
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
325
Location
NE Wyoming
If I understand correctly, you are rushing the shot and not aiming. If this is the case, then some simple shooting drills may help. I suggest this as I have been a "what thing " can help versus a "what can I do" guy. I have only recently gotten more into shooting clays and upland hunting. At times I have that rushed shot feeling, however in doing some drills on my own things have gotten better. I have only used a red dot on handguns and rimfire rifles so I can not speak to the potential effectiveness of such on a shotgun. On those firearms that I have used them on, it does take a bit of practice to adjust to the sight picture. I could see where such might help as when shooting a 44 mag with one for hunting, I had to make sure that my grip and view were very consistent otherwise I didn't have a clear view of the dot or my shots were off. Thus, realize that you will need to pattern your gun with the sight to be the most effective. I have seen guys who have them on the range and in the field and eventually they take the sights off. I honestly have never had a discussion with them about it so your guess is as good as mine.
You ask about other sights... Do you have a mid bead? This helps me in "making the snowman" and to keep the barrel swinging consistently to the target. I do recall an advertisement on the sight you are talking about and wonder if it wasn't when the "reflex" sights came out. Much like the red dot, you have to be inline with the sight in order to see the dot or the crosshairs.
 
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
1,794
Location
Colorado
It sounds like a training issue to me. I think that you may kill a few more birds initially with the added sighting equipment, but that won't fix your problem.
There is something impressive about being able to borrow a shotgun and shoot a bird on the wing. If you rely on a fancy sight to do that with yours, you'll need a fancy sight on every gun you shoot in order to be effective.
If you want to buy something, why not get a ShotKam and go shoot a few rounds of sporting clays? You can watch your misses and hits, and the added bonus is you can film some of your hunts to share with your buddies later.
 

Jim1187

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Mar 7, 2020
Messages
195
Location
New Brunswick, Canada
Practice and some coaching would be a better approach in my opinion. The more shells you expend at a sporting clays course, in particular, during the off season but really any clay shooting will help make you better wing shot.
 

wmd

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Nov 30, 2019
Messages
100
Location
Brookings SD
I don't conciously see the bead on my shotgun while shooting. I shoot with both eyes open and concentrate on the bird and make sure my head is on the stock properly. I tried the glo sight years ago and took it off, I felt it distracted me from the bird.
wmd
 
Joined
Jun 23, 2018
Messages
83
A few years ago a buddy invited me to go pheasant hunting with him. I am not a wing shooter. I took the turkey choke out of my turkey gun and put in a more open one. I used the fastfire 2 reflex site I had mounted for turkey. It worked great . When a bird flew up I put the dot on it and followed then shot . It took a couple shots to get the feel then I was able to take several birds with that set up. Easy to track the bird with both eyes open and get dot on quickly. My buddy laughed really hard when he saw my setup but was impressed that it actually worked when the hunt started . It was a blast !
 

Terrapin

WKR
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
345
Just about all common wisdom in shotgun shooting will say any red dot on a shotgun is a horrible idea. Your supposed to just stare at the bird, ignore the bead and instinctively shoot the bird.

I’ve been bucking that idea for the last couple months. I figured reflex optics work so well on my competition pistols it should work on a shotgun. I machined the receiver on one of my semi-autos so I could get the dot in the center of the housing with my standard mount. It’s phenomenal on geese. I feel like I have exceptional control of the shot, even from uncomfortable positions.

I’ve been a bit inconsistent on sporting clays. Some unexplained misses, possibly related to “aiming” and stopping the gun. By the same token, I’ve been making some phenomenal shots on difficult targets.

Jury is still out. I figure I’ll give it the rest of waterfowl season and shot a couple more flats on clays.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MR5X5

FNG
Joined
Jan 6, 2021
Messages
56
Location
Wetside of WA
I suspect your right on having your head up and shooting high. Pretty common. It's a rhythm thing for me. Simple 3 count that can really be done at any speed as long as you get it in your head to touch all the bases.

1 - mount
2 - head down and point
3- shoot and follow through

Good luck.
 

ptwysocki

FNG
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
41
I laughed when I read this because I went through the exact same issue. ultimately I couldn't find a red dot that was cheap enough to "try out"...otherwise I'm sure I would have gotten sucked in. I only know one person who runs the aimpoint version. He loves it...but he is also a strong shooter...and admits it's just a luxury and he shoots just as good without it. Rather, he runs many other rifle platforms so it's easier to just "live in red dot world" no matter what he's shooting.

For me, I always missed when rushing the shot. Not sure if you aim or point. If looking at a red dot, I'm assuming you're still aiming? Apologize if wrongly assuming here...but again, I was in the same boat. I just refused to not aim, as it felt wildly unnatural. I finally caved and decided to just spend a day at the range forcing myself into trying the pointing method. Much sooner than I expected, I learned to accept the "left shadow" during pointing the gun and looking at the bird. This really helped my "snap shooting". I really believe you "shoot where you look"...as that's seem to apply to me in any sport.

The last thing that helped me, was just slowing down. I say slowing down, but it was really becoming smoother. The idea of slow is smooth smooth is fast really resonated with me. Yes, when grouse or woodcock hinting, I understand every half-second counts. But by smoothing my mount/point out, I found that I was MUCH more accurate. What it came down to, is I'd rather let the bird get up and away if it means I can smoothly mount my gun in the right place.

That's just what has worked for me. I'd recommend trying the red dot out first. I know that's easier said than done since many people don't run them. But as someone who when through this exact dilemma...I am retroactively glad I did not buy it. Once I learned to smooth out my mount and point not aim...I threw out the idea of needing a red dot or glo bead on my shotgun.
 

Squincher

WKR
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
634
Location
Midwest
This is why gun fit and proper, consistent mounting is important in shotguns. A gun that fits shoots where you look, so all you have to do is focus on the target and shoot. Look at some videos of olympic skeet shooters and you will see they fire at almost the instant their face is on the stock because they are already focused on the target and gun is pointed where they are looking as soon as it is mounted.
 

FLS

WKR
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
734
A day with a good shotgun instructor and some time on a sporting clays course is what you need. Mounting a sight, any sight, on a shotgun is going to do the opposite of what you’re trying to achieve. Other than shooting a turkey in the head or shooting a slug you should never be aiming a shotgun. NEVER.
Being a good wing shooter is about having a solid mount and learning how to see your target. Shotgun fit is important but it’s meaningless without mastering the first two. There is a ton of good info online to get you going in the right direction. Then take the money you were going to waste on a red dot and go take a lesson from a certified instructor.
 

Simon65

FNG
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
2
A day with a good shotgun instructor and some time on a sporting clays course is what you need. Mounting a sight, any sight, on a shotgun is going to do the opposite of what you’re trying to achieve. Other than shooting a turkey in the head or shooting a slug you should never be aiming a shotgun. NEVER.
Being a good wing shooter is about having a solid mount and learning how to see your target. Shotgun fit is important but it’s meaningless without mastering the first two. There is a ton of good info online to get you going in the right direction. Then take the money you were going to waste on a red dot and go take a lesson from a certified instructor.
I can see this obviously struck a nerve with some. I’m a firearms instructor but most of my training has been on handguns and rifles, scoped or iron sighted. And I’m the first to say that I rush my shots with the shotgun. I rush, improperly mount the gun, forget to pay any attention to how much of the rib I’m seeing as it’s shouldered and miss more times than I’d like to admit. I regularly shoot 50 yard handgun shots at steel just to slow down and practice sight alignment and trigger control. I take pride in being able to master those basic skills physically and mentally. I also believe all my guys “should “ be able to do the same, but that’s just not the case. So when I put red dots on their AR’s, their groupings improved considerably. So I definitely saw their value. At about the same time, micro dots became popular on handguns. And during all of it, I never really heard from the “purist” hand gunners denouncing the use of red dots. I didn’t hear anyone telling people to go to instructors, shoot more etc. when the inquired about micro dots. It’s just kind of funny. Not sarcastic funny, just funny. Because a part of me feels like red dots have no place on an upland gun. The other part of me says, if you can quickly shoulder the gun (regardless if it’s shouldered correctly). and you can see the dot, you should be able to put lead on target quicker. I think it’s just instinctive to poo poo the idea because certain shotgun shooting is somewhat regal in my eyes. But I could totally see how it could help. I still think it’s important to master the basics but if someone makes a better mousetrap,,,
 

Brendan

WKR
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
3,871
Location
Massachusetts
Honestly I think there are certain shots a red dot might work fine, others where it just won't. Everyone who's shot birds at least a little bit or clays knows the complete reaction shots where you never once thought about the gun, the bead or where it was pointed, it's almost like they never even enter into the equation. It was one very fast and fluid motion where you just focused on the picking up and seeing the target and relying on a good gun mount... Eastern ruffed grouse busting out from underfoot in a heavy cover is one that comes to mind, or seeing a duck come screaming in low over the marsh that you picked up way way late....

And for the record, I'm not a great shot. I have my moments where I'll walk out onto the skeet range and almost break 25 straight, and the next time I'm trying to aim, seeing the bead and gun too much, and I'm missing the stupid easy shots going straight away from me and lucky to break half of them.

So, I'm going to go with a "No" for a red dot except for something like turkey or deer. But, I think it's harder for pistol, rifle, and archery shooters (compound with pin) because it's very different...

My other opinion: Gun fit before lessons. Seriously, spend the time on making sure your gun fits you well, work with a pro, and work on a repeatable gun mount. Get the gun professionally fit if needed.
 

Simon65

FNG
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
2
Honestly I think there are certain shots a red dot might work fine, others where it just won't. Everyone who's shot birds at least a little bit or clays knows the complete reaction shots where you never once thought about the gun, the bead or where it was pointed, it's almost like they never even enter into the equation. It was one very fast and fluid motion where you just focused on the picking up and seeing the target and relying on a good gun mount... Eastern ruffed grouse busting out from underfoot in a heavy cover is one that comes to mind, or seeing a duck come screaming in low over the marsh that you picked up way way late....

And for the record, I'm not a great shot. I have my moments where I'll walk out onto the skeet range and almost break 25 straight, and the next time I'm trying to aim, seeing the bead and gun too much, and I'm missing the stupid easy shots going straight away from me and lucky to break half of them.

So, I'm going to go with a "No" for a red dot except for something like turkey or deer. But, I think it's harder for pistol, rifle, and archery shooters (compound with pin) because it's very different...

My other opinion: Gun fit before lessons. Seriously, spend the time on making sure your gun fits you well, work with a pro, and work on a repeatable gun mount. Get the gun professionally fit if needed.
I appreciate your explanation. I can now see how it could slow down a shot as well. But as a guy who doesn’t have the shotgun fundamentals mastered/ingrained yet I’m curious if my upland season totals could have been any different. I’m specifically thinking back to the shots I rushed at the end of my Kansas hunt. I started the trip focused, taking my time and doing well. The last day n a half, I sucked Either way, I need to attend a wing shooting clinic and spend more time at the range. Thanks for your input.
 

MR5X5

FNG
Joined
Jan 6, 2021
Messages
56
Location
Wetside of WA
My hunting partner, who did not grow shotgunning, was a pretty suspect shot for years. Somehwere along the line it came to light that he was closing an eye and aiming!! Told him to cut that crap out - now he is a perfectly competent shot. I can't see how a red dot or other such sight wont suck you into the aiming dark side. That is not where you wnat to be. It's a rhythm thing... Footing postion hunting the wheat hills of the WA Palouse is what usually does me in...
 

Brendan

WKR
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
3,871
Location
Massachusetts
I appreciate your explanation. I can now see how it could slow down a shot as well. But as a guy who doesn’t have the shotgun fundamentals mastered/ingrained yet I’m curious if my upland season totals could have been any different. I’m specifically thinking back to the shots I rushed at the end of my Kansas hunt. I started the trip focused, taking my time and doing well. The last day n a half, I sucked Either way, I need to attend a wing shooting clinic and spend more time at the range. Thanks for your input.
I think the shots it'll help you on in the short term are the slower developing ones where you have time to see the bird, shoulder the gun, see the dot, and pick a spot in front of it, pull the trigger. That may happen on a slower moving shot, but not on the faster moving ones that are more based on instinct.

Gun fit, keeping your head down on the stock, and fundamentals will get you further in the long run, but if you're going to do a lot of rifle shooting, pistol shooting, archery shooting - it's different and almost competing because you become very aware of the scope/sight. Shotguns are sort of like throwing a baseball or a football at a moving target, you don't aim, you develop proper form over time, see the target and just throw / lead the target.
 
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