Reloading question

[fire arrow]

Was wondering how many of your guys that shoot out to 1000 yds check your bullet runout? I got my 300 back a month ago and I have been busy working up different loads, and I just started to measure the runout. So the question I have is what kind of difference is there in grouping or POI if you have a group of bullets loaded up with a runout of less than .002, and then you have a few that are fired with a runout of .004-.005. I have been going to great lengths to only use rounds that are equal to or less than .002.

I know I could answer this question for my self by just shooting some o find out, but my long range spots are snowed out or have pheasant hunters in them right now.

Thanks.

 

[Sam Millard]

I check my first few cases out of the sizing die to make sure I'm under .002" runout there, but don't check bullet runout any more. I shot several strings that were .004-.006 runout at the ogive that still shot under .5 moa through my 338 Edge (purposely). It's something to do if you're looking for something to do, but not necessary in my experience. I haven't checked bullet runout in approximately 3000 rounds now of various calibers/loads.

I used to do a lot of stuff that I thought was important back when I had time to do it

 

[fire arrow]

I am wondering if that is the case. I can see where a BR shooter would REALLY care, but for a rifle to hold 0.5 out to 800 yds for a good shooting LR hunting rifle I just didn't know if it helped or not. And I don't want to use the term hunting rifle, and make is sound like I do not care or put in effort in making a good reload. It's just there is a line between BR shooting and the rest of the world.

 

[Sam Millard]

You are exactly right with the BR analogy. All of my LR precision rifles shoot .25 moa. I do normal batch sorting and the like, but don't neck turn or sweat concentricity other than making sure the die isn't "bending" the cases when I size them. I am not alone in this. One of the better known LR shooters and gun builders taught me this lesson...

Shoot more, reload less

 

[ST52v]

About a year ago my brother and I started to reload again and wanted consistent rounds. We bought a lock n load gauge to check run out. Probably not the best but it works and gives us an idea where our rounds are. However we don't use it much any more. We have found if you rotate the round 1/4 and seat the bullet just a little after each turn until it is seated completely it is minimal. If you have the gauge try a few rounds and check them. You should see minimal run out.

Sam, could you give us your procedure with a few details and what you feel is important. Thanks Robin

 

[Sam Millard]

Well first of all, I don't want to discourage anyone from trying new things. I have always thought hand loading is as much an addiction as hunting or shooting! Having confidence in your equipment is essential to taking a long shot, so however you get there with your ammo is up to you. My response to the OP is based on my own observations and testing of MY equipment and hand loading techniques. I keep detailed notes on all of my rifles and loads and recommend you do the same!

I am just now setting up a Savage LRP in 260 Remington and helping Ryan work up a load for his new LRKM in +P 338 Edge. I will go over what I did with the 260 this morning.

I always start with at least 100 pieces of new brass (150-200 pieces is better!) from the same lot. I visually check them for split necks, deformed rims, and weird flash holes. I had (2) 50 count bags of Remington brass set aside for this rifle. All 100 passed the visual. I squirted the necks inside and out with Hornady One-Shot, then ran them through an oversized .264" mandrel to straighten the inside of the necks. After that, they get pushed into a Redding FL bushing die with a .288 bushing in it that will give me .003" of neck tension when loaded. Into the tumbler for an hour to remove the lube residue...

I trim cases when new and after every shot with a Wilson lathe trimmer and chamfer the neck in and out. Don't worry about book specs here, just measure a handful of cases until you come up with a measurement that will allow you to shave off .001-.003 or so from the shortest cases. My standard for Remington 260 brass is 2.020". Being new brass, I go ahead and remove the flashing from the primer flash hole inside the case. I also cut the primer pocket to a uniform depth, which makes sure all primers get seated fully, allowing consistent case measurements that require the caliper mandrel to rest on the primer head. I clean the pockets after every firing with the same tool. Having visually checked the cases and removed excess brass as evenly as possible, I now do a quick weight sorting. I don't get crazy here...if they are within 1% of the average weight in a lot, I keep them. All the cases that don't make it go into my brass "set up" bag and get used for setting up cutting tools or trying new things. In this case, the average weight was 161 grains and only 4 bumped out (at 163 grains). Most good batches of brass from the same lot give yields like this or better.

In my load book, I write down every measurement I can take. I measure a new case from head to datum so I can see how far it stretched on the first firing and how far I need to push it back with the first sizing. I measure the neck O.D. new, sized, and loaded. I check concentricity of the new case (can't do anything about it until firing, but I'm curious!) In this case, there is .001-.005" run out at the case neck. That goes away when fired, and I make sure it stays away after sizing. I measured the 260s max OAL before firing to get a bullet seating starting point and to keep track of throat wear as the rifle starts to put on miles. This is where I feel the most attention to detail pays off with long range hunting.

Assuming you and your rifle can consistently shoot 1/2-1 MOA (every time out!), the only thing that matters anymore is consistency of your muzzle velocity. The further you want to shoot, the more it matters! Look at a drop chart for the furthest distance you want to shoot and start plugging in random velocity numbers to see how much it changes the correction for the shot. I will give up some velocity and a tiny bit of accuracy for a consistent single digit E.S., 15-20 fps E.S. will still get you to 800 with most high BC bullets.

Powder, charge weight, neck tension, and precise seating depth from round to round all contribute to consistent velocities from shot to shot. I like Hodgdon's Extreme powders for their general lack of temp sensitivity. I work up loads in the winter when the temps are in the 20s and 30s. I will heat up my rifle and test loads to 80-90 degrees, then shoot them over the chrono to check velocity differences. With H1000 and H4350, velocities tend to stay within 10-15 fps in my rifles/loads.

 

[Broz]

The effect on accuracy of run out will vary from rifle to rifle due to chamber specs. I have found it is very much related to reamer dimensions in the free bore area. A min spec chamber will not allow a bullet to be off center more than around .00025" when chambered. I now have my reamers ground to minimum spec in this area and find that run out is not as important as it use to be. If you order a reamer make sure to check it as they seem to get lax in this area. I know of a few good smiths that follow this method but you don't hear them give details much.

Jeff

 

[fire arrow]

Well I just got done reloading some more test rounds and I separated two groups that were UGLY. I found a place I can shoot out to 300 yards, so I will go and shoot and see how it goes.

 

[HOT ROD]

A lot of good info there. Thanks Sam and Broz....

 

[HOT ROD]

I have question for the experience reloader. When U find the oal that Ur rifle likes. With a particular powder bullet combo. Does that oal change if U switch powders? I am shooting 270 wsm. 140 Accubonds h 4831sc 66.5 grains. With a oal of 2.855. So if I wanted to try h1000. And I try several charge waits. And it doesn't shoot as well as 4831sc. Would the oal change.??? What about primers? Match primers versus standard primers. What is your experience?????

 

[fire arrow]

Read this and give it a go. It works.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...accuracy-berger-vld-bullets-your-rifle-40204/

 

[Broz]

I have question for the experience reloader. When U find the oal that Ur rifle likes. With a particular powder bullet combo. Does that oal change if U switch powders? I am shooting 270 wsm. 140 Accubonds h 4831sc 66.5 grains. With a oal of 2.855. So if I wanted to try h1000. And I try several charge waits. And it doesn't shoot as well as 4831sc. Would the oal change.??? What about primers? Match primers versus standard primers. What is your experience?????

Hot Rod, I wish there was an easy answer for this. I would leave the seating depth that you have working there and work up with the new powder. It may be ok. But if you don't go back and retest different seating depths you may be over looking an even better load. So even though you are starting out a little closer to what the rifle likes when one thing is changed I pretty much start over with load development. The last thing I test is primers unless I am really fighting a stubborn rifle. But when I have a good load it never hurts to try a different primer. I have seen a simple primer change take a .5 moa load to .25 and also a .25 load to .5 or worse.

Jeff

 

[Sam Millard]

Jeff is right, there is no easy or correct answer. The first thing you have to come to terms with is what kind of accuracy are you expecting from the rifle? Set a reasonable minimum accuracy/velocity goal you want to achieve, then go for it.

Regardless of bullet design, magazine length restrictions, etc., I always start .010" off the lands when working up a load. I work the load up with everything the same until I hit heavy pressure signs. If the accuracy is way off, or the velocity is not what I want, I try a different powder or bullet, but stay with the primer and seating depth. Once I find a load that meets my standard for the rifle and it's purpose, I start changing seating depths. I rarely have to seat closer to the lands, even with Bergers. The velocity generally doesn't change while moving out away from the lands, but ES can change. My favorite 260 is throated for 140 AMAX, but I changed out the stock and shoot from a DBM now, so I can't shoot the same load without seating the bullet to mag length. The AMAX didn't like it, but Berger and Sierra 140s shoot as well @ .120" off the lands as the AMAX did @ .010" off! I still started everything .010" off and just single loaded them. Powder and primer stayed the same throughout the process.

 

[HOT ROD]

Thanks guys for all the info. That's why I like this site. Great people here...... I have two loads for the 140 accubond. H4831sc and rl 17. Both shoot same oal very well. I have load for 130 berger vld. With the 4831 sc. With a 2.700 oal. I haven't played to much with this load yet.. This reloading is very addictive habit...

 

[Forks]

Sam, what does ES stand for?

 

[Ryan Avery]

ES Extreme Spread

The speed between your lowest and highest velocity

 

[Justin Crossley]

Great info here guys! Thanks

 

[HOT ROD]

What is the tools off the trade. For the experienced reloader. Who shoots long range.. As far as reloading equipment.

 

[Sam Millard]

There will be a lot of differing opinions concerning equipment I'm sure! The most important thing you can have is a pen and a notebook. Write everything down! Having a record of the things you do will be very valuable later on. Keep samples of your targets (both good and bad) with the notebook. The whole point of precision reloading is being able to exactly replicate your loads over and over, and avoid making the same mistakes

Measuring tools should be at the top of the list. Don't skimp here...I use a Mitutoyo digital caliper. At minimum, you need a way to measure bullet seating depth and shoulder bump (setting up sizing dies). I started with Hornady's kit, but have switched over to Sinclair's stainless version of the same comparators. I like them a lot better. I have 2 comparator bodies...one for seating depth and one for case length. I use an old Stoney Point OAL gauge and modified cases to check seating depth and throat wear. I think Hornady is making that tool now.

I like Redding dies, both the standard versions and the bushing dies. I bump shoulders .002-.003" every time so I use the full length bushing dies mostly. Stainless bushings only. I really like their competition seating dies, too. I keep a RCBS shell holder in the box with the dies and it's the only one I use every time those dies are used.

RCBS Rockchucker press, RCBS 1500 scale, Redding #3-BR powder measure, Sinclair loading blocks, Wilson case trimmer mounted on a Sinclair stand with/ micrometer adjustment, old Frankford Arsenal (Midway) case tumbler.

I prime with the handheld RCBS primer. I de prime everything with a universal depriming die set up in an extra press.

Those are the basics. As with any gear heavy hobby, there are lots of gadgets and gizmos laying around that I have tried also Pick up a Sinclair catalog to browse. There are no limits to what you can buy!

 

[HOT ROD]

Thanks Sam. A lot of great info. One thing I need. Is to start taking better notes.. I didn't take any. When I first started. Need to up date sum equipment.. Thanks again......