Rifle cleaning anxiety

[DJL2]

More barrels have likely been killed by cleaning than being shot out. Some of that is that many (most?) of us don't shoot enough to burn a barrel, but clean like knuckle heads with sectional steel rods, no bore guide, etc.

On the one hand, barrel steel is tough. On the other, rifles are a precision instrument and it doesn't take much to do a barrel in. Some barrels simply aren't made all that well - neither concentric, no true. Some might be loose at the muzzle. Basically, what I'm getting at is that there are a LOT of barrels out there that will do their best work with a layer of copper moderating their imperfections. If the barrel fouls excessively, you'll see it in your groups (and with your borescope). If it doesn't, you can shoot until the throat's gone (or the muzzle)...or the nastiness in the bore attracts enough humidity/water to cause you a different set of problems.

One of the most interesting tests I've seen on barrel wear was done by the US Army. They were testing M2 BMG barrel longevity. They used both traditional gilding metal jackets as well as bi-metal jackets. While the average longevity did not differ meaningfully between jacket types, the steel jacketed barrels failed predictably because of wear at the muzzle and brass/copper jacketed barrels because of wear at the throat. The other interesting piece for discussion might be the relationship between powder mass and bore diameter. While the accuracy standards might be appreciably different then what we expect, the BMGs went several thousands rounds apiece on average - that's a lot of powder and a lot of pressure and still more life than what is typically claimed for, say, a 6mm Creedmoor.

 

[Quicksilver]

I think everyone here who says not to clean is blind, in denial, or ignorant. Now this doesn’t mean clean every shot for the rest of your life, but every setup...literally every setup is different. There is no blanket statement for this. Caliber, barrel material, rifling, barrel tolerances, barrel length, powder, bullet, how you treat that barrel - do you shoot rapidly or cool between shots?, and other factors all contribute to how that barrel is going to degrade or foul over time. Also how OCD are you actually recording your results. Is your setup a factory rifle or full custom setup? Guys saying it takes half a box of ammo to get their accuracy back shows truly how crude their barrel was manufactured. I have one barrel in particular (proof carbon) that on a clean bore my POI or velocity don’t shift from the normal. Usually custom barrels don’t need any break in or fowling after cleaning. Factory I’ve seen 100fps drop on the first shot after a spotless bore due to the imperfections grabbing that bullet that badly. Now generally the break in procedure people speak of is mainly for increasing your times between cleanings or barrel fowling. I haven’t noticed it to affect accuracy at all, usually the opposite as mentioned before as that copper fills the voids in a barrel and helps “perfect it”. Also on a factory barrel you may be doing a lot of work for little to no reward.

I think statements with data or facts are theoy ones paying attention to. People who post round count, bore condition (verified with borescope), caliber, barrel manufacturer, powder used, bullet used, etc can be useful tools in relating your setup to. I clean my 300 norma mag improved every 30-40rds. I’m using n570 powder and don’t shoot more than 2-3 shots max before letting the barrel cool down. I only copper clean every 3 cleanings, but carbon clean heavily every time. This prevents carbon fouling and deposit buildup which if left unattended will require some polishing compound to remove. That is what I try to avoid. Also I have noticed accuracy shift when carbon rings or deposits build. Usually the average accuracy doesn’t degrade but the fliers start to appear. My 6.5 creedmoor comp rifle is the same story. I’ll clean every 200 rounds and have 1400 down the barrel now. I am noticing more copper buildup happening then when only a few hundred were down it. I am also starting to get some pitting from repeated firing which is where the extra copper buildup is coming from. I also be sure to scrub the carbon ring out every 500rds. I will start getting fliers or erratic groups when it’s time to clean. Accuracy goes form sub .5moa to .625+moa when this happens. Again this is monitored with a bore scope and I record results before and after cleaning. I usually post groups not .3” at 100yds after cleaning.

This is not me saying follow what I do, or that I’m doing it right even. But I have posted my experiences instead of just saying “don’t clean” or “clean every 50 shots no matter what” or “average joe at the gun store said this”. Get a borescope, record your experiences, get to know your rifles and do what works for you. You’d be surprised how many people say their barrel is clean until you stick a scope down it. If never cleaning it provides performance you are happy with then don’t clean it! Trial and error will keep your rifle in its happy place. Also watch your velocities, they’ll start acting different with larger SD/ES when the barrel starts fouling. Great indicator before watching your accuracy diminish. Me shooting is always the variable, but with a product like a labradar or magnetospeed I’ve grown to a trust the velocity readings and so far they haven’t lied. Keep an open minded, and if it ain’t broke don’t fix it

 

[rayporter]

lets not compare a ma duece to a 6mm. machine guns like it have dispersion and a high number of bullets to get a hit = no accuracy

any wore out ,243 will out shoot one at most hunting ranges. a 6mm target rifle shooting a half inch is considered beyond hope. guilt edge accuracy might last 900 to 2000 rounds but you will get a couple more thousand rounds if you accept the half inch accuracy. that is if you clean it a lot. accuracy nuts clean every 15 to 20 shots to keep the accuracy , and they do it without hurting a barrel.

 

[SDHNTR]

I clean because I live in an area surrounded by saltwater. It has little to do with accuracy. My guns all get thoroughly cleaned and oiled after shooting and before storage. Otherwise we’re talking rust city after just a few days. The guys who never clean, aren’t your worried about rust/pitting?

 

[DAOutfitters208]

Well my mind is blown. Dammit you guys. I always thought a clean barrel was a accurate barrel. I've always run a dry patch or bore snake down the barrel between different loads I'm trying to develop. After about 20 rds I use the Hoppes and a brush. I guess I need to dive down this worm hole now. Work is on hold for the foreseeable future. Thanks

 

[Formidilosus]

I think everyone here who says not to clean is blind, in denial, or ignorant.

I could be blind, in denial, and ignorant... That’s true.

Or, I could see a lot of rifles/barrels shot with tracking average group size and POI stability for each.

. I clean my 300 norma mag improved every 30-40rds.l (snip)

(Snip) Accuracy goes form sub .5moa to .625+moa when this happens.

What bullet, MV, and average environmentals where you hunt?

The guys who never clean, aren’t your worried about rust/pitting?

I don’t generally shoot blued steel barrels- so no, not really. I also don’t look in my barrels as what it looks like on the inside tells one little of what the bullet is going to do on the outside. Maybe there’s pitting, don’t know, don’t care as zeros remain static, and they hit the same size targets as they did when new.

 

[SonnyDay]

I guess I need to dive down this worm hole now.

Yeah. Me too... I would also miss the smell of Hoppe's... but my wife wouldn't!

 

[Quicksilver]

I could be blind, in denial, and ignorant... That’s true.

Or, I could see a lot of rifles/barrels shot with tracking average group size and POI stability for each.






What bullet, MV, and average environmentals where you hunt?







I don’t generally shoot blued steel barrels- so no, not really. I also don’t look in my barrels as what it looks like on the inside tells one little of what the bullet is going to do on the outside. Maybe there’s pitting, don’t know, don’t care as zeros remain static, and they hit the same size targets as they did when new.

And I commend your for taking data and tracking your rifles! I think that’s is the correct way to go.

I live in the PNW of Washington and live near sea level (120’ 29.9” pressure), most of my testing is done at 2200’ and 27.8”, I do most my hunting 4000-6500’ and ~24.5-25.5”.

my Norma is a berger 215 with 91.8gr N570 at 3200fps. The 6.5 I mentioned is shooting h4350 and Lapua 139 scenars.

 

[kid44]

Flames go down the barrel, I don't think a brass or nylon brush will do any damage.

 

[Formidilosus]

I live in the PNW of Washington and live near sea level (120’ 29.9” pressure), most of my testing is done at 2200’ and 27.8”, I do most my hunting 4000-6500’ and ~24.5-25.5”.

Thank you for the info. This is why cleaning is overrated....


Let’s say that your Norma is a legit .5 MOA gun (as in 20-30 rounds are in .5moa legit), ain’t happening as that is true benchrest precision, but we’ll go with it.

Using the applied Ballistics WEZ calculator, your rifle and load at .5 MOA precision has a 79.8% hit rate on a 12” target at 800 yards. When it’s dirty and throwing “fliers” out to .625 MOA it drop to 79.2%..... It means nothing. All the time and energy spent cleaning does not raise your hit rate on game animals at all.


.5 MOA precision-


.625 MOA precision-




Parameters-





Gained a whopping .6% in hits. Now you can’t tell in actual shooting until around a 5% difference, even then it’s hard to detect. 10% is where if you shoot enough you can start to see a trend. And +/- 2mph wind calling in mountainous terrain is being very generous even to the vast majority of long range shooters.




For those trying to kill animals even out to medium-long range, worry about your zero, scope tracking, positional grouping, and practicing in the wind... not cleaning.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

We reccomend doing a nice cleaning of the barrel every 500 rounds or so depending on the rifle. Clean the action and bolt as needed. Always add a little bit of the right type of grease on the back side of the bolt lug. Not very much at all.

Guys always over clean their rifles. Especially guys who don’t shoot very often or only during hunting seasons.

Another thing we’ve noticed is wanting to get at least 40 rounds through the barrel after a cleaning, before any hunting trips. That 40-50 round count is where the barrel will typically settle in nicely after a cleaning.

 

[Quicksilver]

Thank you for the info. This is why cleaning is overrated....


Let’s say that your Norma is a legit .5 MOA gun (as in 20-30 rounds are in .5moa legit), ain’t happening as that is true benchrest precision, but we’ll go with it.

Using the applied Ballistics WEZ calculator, your rifle and load at .5 MOA precision has a 79.8% hit rate on a 12” target at 800 yards. When it’s dirty and throwing “fliers” out to .625 MOA it drop to 79.2%..... It means nothing. All the time and energy spent cleaning does not raise your hit rate on game animals at all.


.5 MOA precision-View attachment 190208


.625 MOA precision-
View attachment 190210



Parameters- View attachment 190209





Gained a whopping .6% in hits. Now you can’t tell in actual shooting until around a 5% difference, even then it’s hard to detect. 10% is where if you shoot enough you can start to see a trend. And +/- 2mph wind calling in mountainous terrain is being very generous even to the vast majority of long range shooters.




For those trying to kill animals even out to medium-long range, worry about your zero, scope tracking, positional grouping, and practicing in the wind... not cleaning.

Thanks for the info, that’s a useful tool you have. The 6.5 was the one with the accuracy you were referring too not the Norma, sorry for any confusion there. The Norma seems to be end up worse as things start to foul out. My builder was pretty stern on cleaning 30-40 rounds but just for carbon if using N570. I would trust his word over any bodies. And like you have shown in the WEZ calculator whether the difference is noticeable to most or not, if it is one less thing too not worry about on the long checklist then that sits fine with me. As I feel we both have stated before, learning what your rifle(s) likes will be your best benefit. It may not want a cleaning for 1000rds. My brother in laws .260 went 1000rds before he cleaned it and was one of the more accurate rifles in our group of friends. Some rifles need more attention. I think the carbon buildup is what I’m trying to prevent and it’s more of a maintenance cleaning instead of absolutely needing it.

 

[DJL2]

Thank you for the info. This is why cleaning is overrated....


Let’s say that your Norma is a legit .5 MOA gun (as in 20-30 rounds are in .5moa legit), ain’t happening as that is true benchrest precision, but we’ll go with it.

Using the applied Ballistics WEZ calculator, your rifle and load at .5 MOA precision has a 79.8% hit rate on a 12” target at 800 yards. When it’s dirty and throwing “fliers” out to .625 MOA it drop to 79.2%..... It means nothing. All the time and energy spent cleaning does not raise your hit rate on game animals at all.

Gained a whopping .6% in hits. Now you can’t tell in actual shooting until around a 5% difference, even then it’s hard to detect. 10% is where if you shoot enough you can start to see a trend. And +/- 2mph wind calling in mountainous terrain is being very generous even to the vast majority of long range shooters.

For those trying to kill animals even out to medium-long range, worry about your zero, scope tracking, positional grouping, and practicing in the wind... not cleaning.

That reminds me a lot of this:
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/06/09/how-much-does-it-matter-overall-summary/

How Much Does Group Size Matter?

As long-range shooters, we tend to obsess over every little detail. We think everything is important...

precisionrifleblog.com

An excerpt in line with the above - shooting at a 10 inch circular target at 700 yards, using "good" ammo with a 10 fps SD, and a +/- 2.5 mph wind call, with a 1 MOA rifle versus a .5 MOA rifle get you:
1 MOA - 69.7% hit probability
.5 MOA - 78.3% hit probability

 

[TxxAgg]

I'm sold

 

[ShortMountain91]

This post was written because I had just cleaned for a shooting session and after the first rounds of that session, I think there is something too this not cleaning thing. Posted about the session on the reloading thread if anyone has thoughts or advice

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Mr Drysdale]

I am and will remain the guy that cleans deeply every season. I am not a long range shooter but am proficient to 500 yards and have killed that far. I live in the southeast where the humidity is very high. Every rifle has a coat of oil on and in it before going to the safe. Wiped out and off before shooting. I recently had a friend ask me to check his Winchester 7RM to see why he couldn’t get it to group. He said he cleaned after every season for 20 years. I pulled it apart and pulled the scope and rings. Re torqued everything and went to the range. You couldn’t cover the group with a softball. Carried it back to the shop and started cleaning it. Took three nights to get the copper out of it. Back to the range and it was sub MOA. Same scope and ammunition. Pushing a patch through the barrel or pulling a bore snake through the barrel is not cleaning. It just gets the dirt out. Maybe I am OCD about it but this is the way i have taught my son and grandsons to care for their firearms. BTW I don’t touch the barrel after verifying sight in during hunting season unless it has been wet. 300WM, 7RM, 308 Win, 260 Rem and 223.

 

[DJL2]

That's the point, right? Shoot enough with your rifle to KNOW your rifle. If we're gonna kill sacred cows, can we talk about ridiculous barrel break in rituals? That can be under the cleaning umbrella, I suppose.

 

[16Bore]

That reminds me a lot of this:
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/06/09/how-much-does-it-matter-overall-summary/

How Much Does Group Size Matter?

As long-range shooters, we tend to obsess over every little detail. We think everything is important...

precisionrifleblog.com

An excerpt in line with the above - shooting at a 10 inch circular target at 700 yards, using "good" ammo with a 10 fps SD, and a +/- 2.5 mph wind call, with a 1 MOA rifle versus a .5 MOA rifle get you:
1 MOA - 69.7% hit probability
.5 MOA - 78.3% hit probability

Read that article awhile ago and ran out of give a shit about splitting hairs.

 

[menhaden_man]

Thank you for the info. This is why cleaning is overrated....


Let’s say that your Norma is a legit .5 MOA gun (as in 20-30 rounds are in .5moa legit), ain’t happening as that is true benchrest precision, but we’ll go with it.

Using the applied Ballistics WEZ calculator, your rifle and load at .5 MOA precision has a 79.8% hit rate on a 12” target at 800 yards. When it’s dirty and throwing “fliers” out to .625 MOA it drop to 79.2%..... It means nothing. All the time and energy spent cleaning does not raise your hit rate on game animals at all.


.5 MOA precision-View attachment 190208


.625 MOA precision-
View attachment 190210



Parameters- View attachment 190209





Gained a whopping .6% in hits. Now you can’t tell in actual shooting until around a 5% difference, even then it’s hard to detect. 10% is where if you shoot enough you can start to see a trend. And +/- 2mph wind calling in mountainous terrain is being very generous even to the vast majority of long range shooters.




For those trying to kill animals even out to medium-long range, worry about your zero, scope tracking, positional grouping, and practicing in the wind... not cleaning.

So is there any downside to cleaning? In other words, is my only risk of cleaning "wasting" time?

 

[Formidilosus]

So is there any downside to cleaning? In other words, is my only risk of cleaning "wasting" time?

For the most part yes. There is potential to damage the bore/crown, but it’s more difficult than is made out and how much it matters is king of open ended.