Seek Outside vs Kifaru shelters

[tipsntails7]

Yes I can speak to that but tipsntails might bust my balls if I haven't tested every shelter on the planet in exactly the same conditions and I dont have a chemistry degree and I don't own 3 manufacturing plants .

Seriously though there are a few things at work here. First and most importantly, all silnylon sags she wet a little because while the fabrics supposedly don't let any water through (this is not always true), the way silnylon is manufactured does allow the nylon to absorb water and nylon 6,6 with expand and lengthen 2% while lesser nylons will up to 3.5%. To put that in perspective an 8 foot span will grow nearly 2 inches on nylon 6,6. Polyester doesn't really have that problem but there are tradeoffs. Second the way fabric is put together matters in that the ripstop grid and grain of the fabric does provide some structure and the fabric has quite a bit less stretch in the directions on the grid than it does on the bias stretch. What this translates to is seam placement and fabric directionality matters. Seek outside does a better job managing this using alternating directionality at the seams. Third, as already mention pitching is not always done as tight as possible or in the most ideal conditions.

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I didn't realize asking for real world use was busting balls...my apologies.

What you wrote is great, and informative, but it's not something a guy can't learn by just reading stat sheets.


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[Richard295]

I would be interested to see facts on these fabrics too. Some of the unsubstantiated claims don't sit well with me but it seems to me that everything plays a part in these structures including design.

Does a 3,000 waterproofing outperform 1,500 by 2x in the real world? [i don't know...it might outperform by 4x...or not at all]

I do know that some of the Silnylon I have of the same weight from different sources is different. Some has almost no stretch from side to side/end to end but a fair amount of stretch at a 45 deg angle.

Some Silnylon has a very fine dyneema fiber built in as a ripstop. I am very impressed with the 1.6oz 4000PU stuff from Ripstop by the roll...little to no stretch, very tough.

I have test equipment to measure many fabric charateristics; my test results for the RBTR fabric you mentioned is posted here:
The Optimal non-Cuben Tent Fly Material - Backpacking Light I have never tested a sample from either of the two vendors in this discussion.

According to ISO 811, materials with a hydrostatic head of more than 1,500mm can be designated, in general, as rainproof. Even when fabric specs are provided, they are for the new condition only. All fabric coatings progressively exfoliate from wet flexing; this deteriation curve can be lab measured using a Cubix-type Wet-Flex tester in less than 24 hours or after many weeks of field use.

5,400 wet flex cycles (simulates ~2 weeks of wind and rain) is all that is needed to differentiate most silnylon. Very high quality coatings take about 16,000 wet flex cycles (simulates ~1.5 months of wind and rain) to differentiate. My tests showing some high quality fabric degradation curves are here: Fall 2016 Fabric Samples Compared - Backpacking Light

 

[Doghed]

I have test equipment to measure many fabric charateristics; my test results for the RBTR fabric you mentioned is posted here:
The Optimal non-Cuben Tent Fly Material - Backpacking Light I have never tested a sample from either of the two vendors in this discussion.

According to ISO 811, materials with a hydrostatic head of more than 1,500mm can be designated, in general, as rainproof. Even when fabric specs are provided, they are for the new condition only. All fabric coating progressively exfoliate from wet flexing; this deteriation curve can be lab measured using a Cubix-type Wet-Flex tester in less than 24 hours or after many weeks of field use.

5,400 wet flex cycles (simulates ~2 weeks of wind and rain) is all that is needed to differentiate most silnylon. Very high quality coatings take about 16,000 wet flex cycles (simulates ~1.5 months of wind and rain) to differentiate. My tests showing some high quality fabric degradation curves are here: Fall 2016 Fabric Samples Compared - Backpacking Light

Good stuff! Thanks for the links.

BH.

 

[4ester]

How do Tigoat's materials compare to the others?


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[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

I didn't realize asking for real world use was busting balls...my apologies.

What you wrote is great, and informative, but it's not something a guy can't learn by just reading stat sheets.


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What I gave was an opinion based on real world experience with shelters from both companies...since it was so sincere, apology accepted.

I'll try harder in the future to make comments that don't disappoint you.



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[tipsntails7]

What I gave was an opinion based on real world experience with shelters from both companies...since it was so sincere, apology accepted.

I'll try harder in the future to make comments that don't disappoint you.



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I don't think I've seen a guy get so defensive when asked about actual experience using shelters in the woods.

You obviously must have a lot of experience with shelters from both companies, I was just hoping to glean some of that.

Like what shelters? What conditions you have used them in, wind, rain, heavy snow? what you liked and didn't like. When does kifarus superior fabrics start to really make a difference over regular fabrics? That way a guy can decide for himself if the extra money is needed to step up to the better shelter. How much wind you can expect to tolerate in one vs the other.

I'm not trying to piss in your cereal, but you made a pretty decisive statement, but didn't edify the point further, so it doesn't help a guy actualy make a decision.


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[reaper]

Any of you guys have experience running or testing both brands of shelters? I wanna do a lifetime bha membership at some point and was wondering about the cimmaron? I have a kifaru 6 man and stove right now and wanna see how it stacks up as far as quality goes. Seems like both companies have a great reputation around rokslide

Back to the topic to help our friend here.I see you already have experience with kifaru tipi,perfect,why not giving a try to seekoutside?...super nice shelters,many option,great customers service,both have strong fabric and i am not going crazy on few mm of difference fabric,family camping,hunting trips,name it,they will both give you nice times in the backcountry.

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[DaveC]

Further thoughts on the build quality question:

When I worked for Seek and did some testing on what is now the Colorado tarp it took a 5:1 Z drag tied off to a tree to rip out a tieout. I didn't have an instrument available to quantify the force but given the mechanical advantage and a 170 pound guy tugging as hard as he could I think 300 lbs is a conservative estimate.

When I recall how that tieout failed (at the edge of the Cordura reinforcement) and look at the Sheep Tarp which seems to have the majority of the tieouts just sewn to the hem with maybe a little extra fabric inside the seam, it is hard for me to conclude that the Kifaru method is inferior. Ditto with the lack of a zipper flap and the longstanding drip issue associated with it. Combine these things with the excessive cost and I can't see why I'd buy a Kifaru shelter when SO and MLD are available.

I'm borrowing a friends Duplex at the moment and have been pleasantly surprised with how well it carries (this is with the stock stays replaced with 1x1/8" 7075), so I'm trying to be careful with my prejudice that Kifaru enjoys a reputation which is beyond what their product quality deserves. Maybe I am similarly mistaken about their shelters, but no one has really done much to counter that beyond (in essence) say "take my word for it."

 

[LBFowler]

I didn't realize asking for real world use was busting balls...my apologies.

Yeah, how dare you!

I'm still waiting to hear why he likes the kifaru fabric better too. Not a huge number of people that have used both, so any data they can provide is helpful.

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

Yeah, how dare you!

I'm still waiting to hear why he likes the kifaru fabric better too. Not a huge number of people that have used both, so any data they can provide is helpful.

Seek outside mists through when kifaru doesn't and kifaru is noticeably stronger. Whether that strength transfers to real world necessity is up for debate as I've never seen an actual failure of either. Kifaru fabric has proved superior in every scenario I've done. Both companies have good design features and could learn from each other in some ways. As i said before Seek outside is not a bad product.

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[dotman]

Seek outside mists through when kifaru doesn't and kifaru is noticeably stronger. Whether that strength transfers to real world necessity is up for debate as I've never seen an actual failure of either. Kifaru fabric has proved superior in every scenario I've done. Both companies have good design features and could learn from each other in some ways. As i said before Seek outside is not a bad product.

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Haha, SO mists through? I'll have to tell my Cimmaron I'm pissed that it hasn't misted on me in the few nasty rain storms it's been through.

How long were you in the elements when you experienced this misting through? Have you had a SO shelter break down on you and what ere the failure points?

You can ask colonel01 which shelter came out of our hunt with a tear between my Cimmaron and his Sawtooth.

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

Haha, SO mists through? I'll have to tell my Cimmaron I'm pissed that it hasn't misted on me in the few nasty rain storms it's been through.

How long were you in the elements when you experienced this misting through? Have you had a SO shelter break down on you and what ere the failure points?

You can ask colonel01 which shelter came out of our hunt with a tear between my Cimmaron and his Sawtooth.

I'm glad you have had good experience with yours. Perhaps the shelters that I've observed firsthand came from bad batches of fabric.

On that note I'm going to bow out of this discussion, as there isn't a whole lot I can offer that will convince SO fans and I can't really argue against individual anecdotal evidence and comment editing after the fact. Anyone interested in specifics of my findings is welcome to pm me.

Have a good day fellas.

 

[dotman]

I'm glad you have had good experience with yours. Perhaps the shelters that I've observed firsthand came from bad batches of fabric.

On that note I'm going to bow out of this discussion, as there isn't a whole lot I can offer that will convince SO fans and I can't really argue against individual anecdotal evidence and comment editing after the fact. Anyone interested in specifics of my findings is welcome to pm me.

Have a good day fellas.

I'm not a SO fan, have known Aron for many years and used Kifaru longer then I've known him but I'm not caught up in that only Kifaru is the best gear. You keep stating all these issues but have yet to actually give any details on your experiences with both products. Kifaru may be far superior but that may not amount to much when SO is plenty durable for 99.9% of people.

 

[COlineman78]

I'm not a SO fan, have known Aron for many years and used Kifaru longer then I've known him but I'm not caught up in that only Kifaru is the best gear. You keep stating all these issues but have yet to actually give any details on your experiences with both products. Kifaru may be far superior but that may not amount to much when SO is plenty durable for 99.9% of people.

His argument wasn't based on value, only capability. The problem is that Aron is in that 0.1%, so in order to become a Kifaru product it must be durrable enough for the 100% and not the 99%. As an engineer, we are often encouraged to find the 80% solution when cost is a concern because over half of the cost comes in that last 20%.

On the Kifaru FB group a few weeks ago people were asking about why Kifaru doesn't have a carbon pole. I actually talked to Aron in person about it after the fact and the conclusion is that they tried, but in order to make one good enough for him it was only 1-2oz lighter than the Aluminum and would've cost over $400 just for the center pole. Like you said, the SO carbon center pole is good enough for most users, but Kifaru in general designs stuff for all users. That being said, the Tut proves that they are getting more willing to sacrifice things like wind performance for weight and cost. Same thing goes for the arrow stays in the frame. Maybe we will begin to see more of this.

 

[dotman]

His argument wasn't based on value, only capability. The problem is that Aron is in that 0.1%, so in order to become a Kifaru product it must be durrable enough for the 100% and not the 99%. As an engineer, we are often encouraged to find the 80% solution when cost is a concern because over half of the cost comes in that last 20%.

On the Kifaru FB group a few weeks ago people were asking about why Kifaru doesn't have a carbon pole. I actually talked to Aron in person about it after the fact and the conclusion is that they tried, but in order to make one good enough for him it was only 1-2oz lighter than the Aluminum and would've cost over $400 just for the center pole. Like you said, the SO carbon center pole is good enough for most users, but Kifaru in general designs stuff for all users. That being said, the Tut proves that they are getting more willing to sacrifice things like wind performance for weight and cost. Same thing goes for the arrow stays in the frame. Maybe we will begin to see more of this.

I agree completely that Aron is in that .1% and everything has to meet his standard. While SO may not meet that extra .1% value that doesn't mean it isn't a quality reliable product.

 

[COlineman78]

I agree completely that Aron is in that .1% and everything has to meet his standard. While SO may not meet that extra .1% value that doesn't mean it isn't a quality reliable product.

Agreed. Same could be said for many of Kifaru's pack competitors. Hell, even Kuiu's packs (not to go too far down this rabbit hole) are good enough for a large majority of hunters who only carry heavy loads on the rare occasion.

 

[dotman]

Agreed. Same could be said for many of Kifaru's pack competitors. Hell, even Kuiu's packs (not to go too far down this rabbit hole) are good enough for a large majority of hunters who only carry heavy loads on the rare occasion.

Oh no you just had to say that 4 letter word, now the thread will be locked within hours

 

[KurtR]

I am kinda new to the back country game is it acceptable to haul my cimaron in my Kifaru pack?

 

[LBFowler]

I'd be curious whether Live2hunts experience was with the current SO fabric, I don't know how many they have gone through since they started but I'd guess 4 or 5 different ones at least.

Misting is most often condensation being knocked off, that's where using two tents at the same time is about the only way to compare conclusively, lots of variables at play on any day of the week. I've done a ghetto rip test on both fabrics and couldn't tell a difference, but its been a long time since I had access to lab equipment.

 

[dotman]

I am kinda new to the back country game is it acceptable to haul my cimaron in my Kifaru pack?

Haha, no worries been doing it awhile now without being struck by lightening