Shot Placement Article from BaseMap, good stuff

[MattB]

Ray, can you put a dot on where the bullet passed through? Unless the shot was forward of the chest cavity I am not understanding how it could be underneath the spine and not hit lungs.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Ray, can you put a dot on where the bullet passed through? Unless the shot was forward of the chest cavity I am not understanding how it could be underneath the spine and not hit lungs.

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DONT YOU GET IT!!! It was in the lung cavity but didn’t even go inside the lung cavity!!! If he hit the top of the shoulder blade as he stated then the other Hunter shot him in the hump. Which has nothing to do with a vital lung cavity shot anyways.


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[rayporter]

i dont know how.

 

[Billy Goat]

I'll just say as a bow hunter I'll pass this shot angle from experience...

Hard quartering away is not the best shot, in my experience. Slight quarter is great, but from what I see I'll wait for a better shot.



And the d2 or 3 shot they call a liver shot look all pelvic bone to me, it's a put an animal down quick with a gun shot, for a follow-up. But nothing for archery, in my opinion.

 

[wapitibob]

"It was in the lung cavity but didn’t even go inside the lung cavity!"

ummm

 

[Marble]

And after all these years of the internet and hunting forums, not a single surgeon has said, "yes, there is a void."

I won't call it a void. But I can say I recovered an arrow about 10" long (broken off) with broadhead ( 3 blade G5 type) on the end under the spine, behind the shoulder about halfway back. Broke one rib on way in and hit rib on other side. It had healed over.

This was small 4 point bull. I had seen him in the days preceding and it was late October.

Flame away..

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[robby denning]

I won't call it a void. But I can say I recovered an arrow about 10" long (broken off) with broadhead ( 3 blade G5 type) on the end under the spine, behind the shoulder about halfway back. Broke one rib on way in and hit rib on other side. It had healed over.

This was small 4 point bull. I had seen him in the days preceding and it was late October.

Flame away..

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most butcher have these stories too.

 

[Bighorner]

I very humbly request a 5 veterinarian shoot out on explaining the void or debunking it, or any professional for that matter. This is a great forum for people who care about shot placement to get so legit information. There are better things to fight over than the "void".

 

[jmez]

You don't need 5. You won't find a single one, that will tell you you can go under the spine cranial, (to the front) of the diaphragm and not be within the chest cavity. You will also hit the lungs, they extended up beyond the margins of the vertebrae. That is the anatomy and it doesn't change.

There is a whole lotta muscle from the top line to the level of the spinal canal. AKA backstrap. Call this the void if you want, it is a non vital shot/area. It isn't a space beneath the spine and above the chest cavity. That doesn't exist.

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[Bighorner]

I'm right there with you man, it doesn't. But my opinion on the internet doesn't amount to a hill of beans. No sense in arguing about.

 

[MattB]

I'll just say as a bow hunter I'll pass this shot angle from experience...

Hard quartering away is not the best shot, in my experience. Slight quarter is great, but from what I see I'll wait for a better shot.



And the d2 or 3 shot they call a liver shot look all pelvic bone to me, it's a put an animal down quick with a gun shot, for a follow-up. But nothing for archery, in my opinion.

From an opposing perspective, I have a friend who guided archery blacktail hunters for 30 years and quartering way is his favorite shot. It takes the shoulder blade out of the equation and gives you the most "soft" target to shoot at of any angle.

He can also track like no one I have ever seen, so for what that is worth.

 

[MattB]

You don't need 5. You won't find a single one, that will tell you you can go under the spine cranial, (to the front) of the diaphragm and not be within the chest cavity. You will also hit the lungs, they extended up beyond the margins of the vertebrae. That is the anatomy and it doesn't change.

There is a whole lotta muscle from the top line to the level of the spinal canal. AKA backstrap. Call this the void if you want, it is a non vital shot/area. It isn't a space beneath the spine and above the chest cavity. That doesn't exist.

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My friend who is a retired veterinarian said essentially that.

And add hair on top of that muscle, there is more animal above the spine than a lot of guys understand.

 

[Marble]

Well I can't explain it either. But I saw it with my own eyes and me and three other hunters all scratched our heads about it. When I first saw it I thought a stick had fallen into the cavity while gutting it. It was just laying there agonist the spine. I grabbed it and it was stuck in the off side rib. The scar tissue had grown around the broadhead and was connected to the inner wall of the chest cavity. I don't recall how close the broken part of the arrow was to other side of the ribs.

I really couldn't understand how it did survive. And he had his own decent size herd of cows he (as a 4 point) pushed around and traveled with over the course of a week. So he was perfectly fine.

I dont like the term void either. I've cleaned dozens of Elk and can't see how its possible.

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[Billy Goat]

From an opposing perspective, I have a friend who guided archery blacktail hunters for 30 years and quartering way is his favorite shot. It takes the shoulder blade out of the equation and gives you the most "soft" target to shoot at of any angle.

He can also track like no one I have ever seen, so for what that is worth.

I'll take a quartering away shot, I can almost prefer it. But the angle presented in the picture is not what I'd call quartering away, more of a going away. It's turned hard enough that I'm not positive you could get a double lung shot in it. If you can it's just barely. It looks like that deer is facing 60 degrees away from broadside. Given how much they can move, I want a better angle before I shoot. I'll take up to a 40-45 away from broadside.

 

[WhatToHunt]

The article's photo would be a shot I'd take if the deer wasn't walking and he was calm and it was within an acceptable range and not too steep of an angle if I were in a tree. I'm guessing they just chose a photo to discuss the grid, but all good points discussed here!

Agreed on all "the void" talks already mentioned. This video (around 3:55 mark) I think explains it well in that most people who use the term "void" or "dead zone" don't realize the spine sits lower:

 

[jmez]

Well I can't explain it either. But I saw it with my own eyes and me and three other hunters all scratched our heads about it. When I first saw it I thought a stick had fallen into the cavity while gutting it. It was just laying there agonist the spine. I grabbed it and it was stuck in the off side rib. The scar tissue had grown around the broadhead and was connected to the inner wall of the chest cavity. I don't recall how close the broken part of the arrow was to other side of the ribs.

I really couldn't understand how it did survive. And he had his own decent size herd of cows he (as a 4 point) pushed around and traveled with over the course of a week. So he was perfectly fine.

I dont like the term void either. I've cleaned dozens of Elk and can't see how its possible.

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But the arrow was in the chest cavity. High shot in the chest may not kill the animal, Would be rare but can and does happen on occasion. The arrow can't be beneath the spine and not in the thorax unless it is behind the diaphragm.

 

[robby denning]

I haven’t read every post but is the void debate that if you hit below the spine, you will always hit the lungs?


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[WhatToHunt]

I haven’t read every post but is the void debate that if you hit below the spine, you will always hit the lungs?


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I think so.

*runs away

 

[Marble]

I haven’t read every post but is the void debate that if you hit below the spine, you will always hit the lungs?


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Thats what I'm gathering too.

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[Marble]

But the arrow was in the chest cavity. High shot in the chest may not kill the animal, Would be rare but can and does happen on occasion. The arrow can't be beneath the spine and not in the thorax unless it is behind the diaphragm.

So I'm just trying to clarify i guess. It was in front of the diaphragm, in the thorax, below the spine. Ribs on each side hit. I wish I had a cell phone at the time to take pictures. But this was like 2003ish.

My best guess it was past the lungs, too far back to hit them.

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