Signed up for the Covid Zombie Juice.....

mdtennant

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Biden, Seizing on Worries of a Rushed Vaccine, Warns Trump Can’t Be Trusted
By Sydney Ember
Past vaccine disasters show why rushing a coronavirus vaccine now would be 'colossally stupid'
By Jen Christensen, CNN


For those of you who would shame me for murdering my fellow man because I will pass on the vaccine, I am sure that you are right behind those folks who would support prohibition, banning big gulps, and a complete ban on tobacco as well. Think of all of the tragic unnecessary deaths from from alcohol, obesity, and everything tobacco. Who better to save us from ourselves than the government and scientists who would support those types of mandates? Please express your virtue by supporting those noble causes to save humanity from living. Please do not complain about your freedoms, it is for the greater good.

Just a few things on CV19 and the vaccine and I apologize if some of this has already been covered.

In my opinion, the media and politics [hard to tell them apart sometimes] really have no place in science and do more to cause mistrust in factual information than support it, as they will use whatever is in front of them to further their agenda even if it means being hypocritical. Biden has in fact taken the vaccine despite the article above. Also, Trump has nothing to do with making the vaccine. The president does not approve drug products for EUA or issue broader marketing authorization. That comes from FDA, and where FDA is under the executive branch of government, FDA makes decisions independent of the POTUS.

Secondly, there are a few places where you can obtain fairly reliable information to help you make informed decisions regarding your healthcare. I can post or point in that direction for those interested in hopes that the information would be helpful. Yes, I am in the Biotech industry, and yes, I do work at Pfizer, but I did not join this forum to promote vaccines... I joined to learn as much as I can from all of you about backcountry hunting. Likewise, just because I work in the Biotech industry does not mean I think every vaccine or drug is right for everyone and as such, I would not push drugs or vaccines on anyone. Furthermore, I would not shame anyone for taking the vaccine or for passing on it, but rather I feel people should be armed with factual information to enable them to make well-informed decisions regarding their own healthcare.

Just a few random things that I hope are helpful [and if not, I apologize]:

As far as long-term negative effects from a vaccine... in general, most negative effects emerge within 2 months of dosing, which is one of the reasons why FDA required 2 months of safety data.

Over 70,000 people were in the Pfizer and Moderna clinical trials, which is a ton of safety data. Yes, certain people were excluded from the clinical trials, such as people that are immunocompromised for whatever reason, e.g. chemotherapy. Likewise, there have not been further sub-setting of groups to look at things like how and underlying immunological condition, such as Lupus, might interact with the vaccine. These studies are planned and will be conducted in the future. People with underlying immunological conditions outside of being immunocompromised, were included in the clinical trials, but the numbers are too small to generate meaningful statistics. That being said, there were no hot spots in the observed in adverse reactions above baseline that would indicate people with underlying immunological conditions are more prove to adverse events.

Things that have been reported as adverse events, like Bells Palsy, did not occur at a level that exceeded the prevalence in the normal population indicating that the vaccine in and of itself is not "causing" BP.

There is an emerging loose correlation between blood type and being symptomatic versus asymptomatic. This one is interesting and we will need to see if this holds true long-term or if it is just an artifact. Note that it does not mean your blood type will prevent you from getting infected or sick, but rather it may influence the type and severity of symptoms displayed. This could be part of why we all know people that had a household member get sick, but they did not.

There are incidents of people getting infected and sick more than once. This is another thing that needs more data, as it is not fully understood why this occurs. It could be a function of the individual's immune system in conjunction with the virus. You immune system is a gatekeeper for your body. It is exposed to millions of things every single day and just like passenger screening at an airport, your immune system has to decide what is a threat and what is not a threat. Consequently, some things can get past the initial screening and you may not develop a robust immune response that confers protective immunity against subsequent exposures. In fact, if you look at the clinical data, you will see that both vaccines require a second does at least 14 days following the first dose, and that there is only around 50% efficacy after just the first dose, but ~95% efficacy after the second dose. This is actually in alignment with some cases of people that have had covid becoming infected again. Clearly more data is needed here.

The mask debate is based on misunderstanding of what masks truly accomplish. The only way to not transmit a virus through aerosols is to wear a fully enclosed hood [like a haz-mat suit] that filters all air in and out with an appropriate filter. What this means is that conventional masks have limitations in effectiveness of preventing transmission. These limitations are a function of the material, the fit, how a mask is worn, when is it taken off, etc, etc. The variables go on and on. So, just because someone wears a mask, does not mean they won't get sick. Rather, wearing a mask is simply a layer of protection with a huge range of effectiveness from "not very" to "fairly reasonable" depending on all the variables. Personally, I wear a mask at work. It is part of my job. I do not wear one at home, in my car, or when hiking.

Transmission is a function of exposure to a viral load and that overall viral load is determined by the duration and proximity of that exposure [think of it as dose]. A brief exposure to someone that is positive likely will not result in transmission, however sustained exposure at close distance likely will. Whether that transmission results in symptomatic condition is a different story.

Saving this one for last and it is something I feel is quite important to understand. The vaccine is not an end all be all savior of the universe! That is completely untrue. It is simply one weapon in our arsenal that will help us get a little better control of CV19, but it will not eradicate it. Furthermore, as beneficial as the vaccine has been shown to be per the demonstrated efficacy in the clinical trials, there is no data suggesting that it prevents asymptomatic transmission of the virus. Meaning, I could be vaccinated and be exposed, but not get sick. However, I could transmit that to my wife at home who has not been vaccinated. One of the things I have seen written in declination statements at hospitals where they are forcing people to get vaccinated is that by not getting vaccinated you are "causing direct harm to your patients, colleagues, community and self." This is rather alarming and should not be tolerated as it implies that the vaccines are providing something that has not been demonstrated and that is prevention of any form of transmission... which is simply not the case. The vaccines have been shown to protect the recipient from infection, but has not been shown to prevent transmission by those recipients.


Overall, I feel both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are beneficial and worthy of consideration for those who want to take them. I don't feel that any vaccine should be shoved down people's throats and I certainly would not think poorly of those who choose not to receive it. It is critical to ensure people have factual information to help enable them in the decision making process.

Personally, I will get vaccinated if I qualify for it, but my preference would be to forfeit my dose to someone who needs it more than me. I would much rather enable people in a high-risk group to receive it before me, however, I have no concerns receiving either vaccine. Please don't misinterpret my confidence in the vaccine as pushing it, as I feel that people should take a drug product if they actually need it.


I know that was a lot and I hope at least something in there was helpful. I apologize for being so long-winded and promise I was not chewing on an Ex-lax tablet.
 

fwafwow

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Apr 8, 2018
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4,957
[snip]

1. 99% of the stuff on the internet is BS (imagine that). Most of the true research articles are behind a pay wall; pay money for those articles (sometimes a lot of money) or be a scholar, researcher, doctor, etc who's company/school pays a subscription. The news and other media outlines that summarize the research 90% of the time only read the abstract and have no business attempting to interpret the results as they are morons.

Ie, us regular folk do not get to see all of the stuff the smart people see, let alone understand it. I wouldn't trust any average Joe to make sense of it. After seeing some of her research papers, I'd spend the first 5 minutes googling 90% of the words in her first paragraph.
Thanks for this post, and for the following one by @mdtennant. I think that these threads can be valuable to many of us, especially if we keep the posts respectful. IMHO:
  1. The blame for over-simplification by the media is shared by the researchers, and the sponsors of the research (which is likely to be Pharma) - especially when the studies use relative risk reduction to explain the purported benefits, then use absolute risk reduction to explain the side-effects. (And if you don't know what those terms mean, neither did I until a few weeks ago.)
  2. Even if you can access the articles on the studies, you (and experts) may not have access the underlying data from the studies - I believe the data belongs to Pharmathe sponsor. Note that until recently, the results of studies did not even have to be published, which was much more often the case if the results were negative.
  3. Just because we are regular folk, doesn't mean we have to rely completely on "experts". I'm not saying go to some random website that says everyone in Pharma is evil, but there are MDs and scientists who can share things like the above two points - like Malcolm Kendrick or Ben Goldacre. (But warning - some label them as "radical" or worse.)
I'm not arguing against this vaccine, and I don't believe every person in Pharma has bad intentions. But I also think there are debates - even among the experts that are not often covered by the media and of which we are often blissfully unaware.
 
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Thanks for this post, and for the following one by @mdtennant. I think that these threads can be valuable to many of us, especially if we keep the posts respectful. IMHO:
  1. The blame for over-simplification by the media is shared by the researchers, and the sponsors of the research (which is likely to be Pharma) - especially when the studies use relative risk reduction to explain the purported benefits, then use absolute risk reduction to explain the side-effects. (And if you don't know what those terms mean, neither did I until a few weeks ago.)
  2. Even if you can access the articles on the studies, you (and experts) may not have access the underlying data from the studies - I believe the data belongs to Pharmathe sponsor. Note that until recently, the results of studies did not even have to be published, which was much more often the case if the results were negative.
  3. Just because we are regular folk, doesn't mean we have to rely completely on "experts". I'm not saying go to some random website that says everyone in Pharma is evil, but there are MDs and scientists who can share things like the above two points - like Malcolm Kendrick or Ben Goldacre. (But warning - some label them as "radical" or worse.)
I'm not arguing against this vaccine, and I don't believe every person in Pharma has bad intentions. But I also think there are debates - even among the experts that are not often covered by the media and of which we are often blissfully unaware.
Agree on there being debates among experts and we don’t always get to hear them. Dr faucci spoke about the vaccine to my org as a virtual guest speaker. I work for a university hospital and the majority of questions from med students and staff. The experience alone made me realize there is so much I don’t know understand. There questions were over by head as far as terminology goes, but was cool to hear there back and forth in civilized manner on ruling out this and that. I think when docs or experts or whomever debates on big media, it’s dramatized. Real expert doc debates are very boring... but necessary.
 
OP
Fatcamp

Fatcamp

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Wow. Excellent posts, gentleman. I want people to get the vaccine for purely selfish reasons. I got it myself for pretty selfish reasons.

Worn out on seeing people jacked up with this stuff.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Wow. Excellent posts, gentleman. I want people to get the vaccine for purely selfish reasons. I got it myself for pretty selfish reasons.

Worn out on seeing people jacked up with this stuff.
I agree. Everything changes so quickly without it. Today my family found out that there was one positive test on my daughters' basketball team. Both daughters along with about 30 teammates all sent home for a 14 day quarantine.
 
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I agree. Everything changes so quickly without it. Today my family found out that there was one positive test on my daughters' basketball team. Both daughters along with about 30 teammates all sent home for a 14 day quarantine.
I'm currently on exposure quarantine as well. At least here in California, getting the vaccine does not exempt you from any of the mandates. Still must mask, still must social distance, still must quarantine if exposed since they say you could still be an "asymptomatic carrier". I just got a notice that I can get the vaccine through work but am going to pass at this point for a number of reasons.
 

adamm88

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Sep 6, 2016
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Pennsylvania
I received my vaccine today, one of my employees passed away from covid about a month ago after being on a vent for a month, to say she was two months from getting something that would have
Probably made covid survivable for makes it a no brainer for me to get it.

No side effects so far


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My sister-in-law works for a biomed company in Washington State that has been treating cancer using this RNA technology for years. She's a bio chemical engineer literally helping people cure cancer with customized treatments. They decode a person's dna and build a custom cancer treatment that targets the cancer cells and leaves all of the persons other cells intact. This RNA technology is NOT entirely new. It's just widely available to the masses in vaccine form.

I was skeptical of this vaccine at first, but her explanation helped me realize, a) there are WAY smarter people in the world working on this stuff and, b) I never fully understood the research process enough to not be a moron about why one should or should not get a vaccine, medicine, etc. In summary, here are 5 key points I gathered from her educating me:

1. 99% of the stuff on the internet is BS (imagine that). Most of the true research articles are behind a pay wall; pay money for those articles (sometimes a lot of money) or be a scholar, researcher, doctor, etc who's company/school pays a subscription. The news and other media outlines that summarize the research 90% of the time only read the abstract and have no business attempting to interpret the results as they are morons.

Ie, us regular folk do not get to see all of the stuff the smart people see, let alone understand it. I wouldn't trust any average Joe to make sense of it. After seeing some of her research papers, I'd spend the first 5 minutes googling 90% of the words in her first paragraph.

2. Vaccines are more effective at helping you survive a virus or have less symptoms, vs just getting it. Not going to explain why. Just that majority of scientists and doctors agree.
3. The side-effects are so rare, even the extreme ones, that it's pretty silly how scared many of us get. She had to break the statistics down into cave painting form for me to understand. Ie, it will be extremely rare for some people to have side effects.

There will be people who have side effects, it happens. My wife carries and EPI-pen, and was told to not take it by doctors because she has idiopathic anaphylaxis (she had bad cancer as a kid that wrecked her system). She is one of these uber rare people who may experience a side effect (she has a lot of uber rare stuff thanks to that cancer). But she's one of the few exceptions. 6 million people have been vaccinated.

4. Pharma is not always evil people trying to be evil, many of the people creating these drugs want to save lives (my sister-in-law wanting to cure cancer because her sister had it is proof, as are all the people she works along side). Yes they get rich off drugs, but I prefer money as a motivator vs some other sinister motive.
5. Most importantly, and this is synonymous with #1 above, the media sucks at explaining anything medical and research related.

I share to say please don't freak out over a vaccine. I fully am for discussing concerns. I had my own, but as I shared above I came to realize there is not so much to be concerned about other than fear itself. The speed of which the virus came available seems to be the most concerning to people. Did we move to quickly? Were corners cut, etc? Well, here's what I learned as that was my biggest fear:

My scientist sister-in-law, who also worked at the FDA for several years, explained there is so much bureaucracy and red-tape not related to the testing phases at the FDA that makes every drug take forever to get cleared. There is all sorts of research and medicine being conducted out there and going through FDA review. She argued if anything, this vaccine should prove how we could get other much needed medicines out to people faster, especially generics, red-tape of getting these things to market weren't so extreme. Apparently, this is why there is no generic epi-pen or other generic drugs for seemingly simple to make drugs that now cost a fortune. For example, it is too expensive for a cottage shop pharmacy company to spend 10 years and millions of dollars to make a generic EPI-pen.

My other concern I shared was how it sounded like people got super sick with the second round vacccine and if it would prevent spread. She had her thoughts on that too. Ie, we are again talking about the rare side-effects some people will experience. And again, that the media and average Joe journalist's are not interpreting the published data correctly. What a lot of people don't really pay attention to and forget to talk about with COVID-19, are the patients who get hit hard by COVID-19. She did agree the at-risk groups or the patient population groups who are getting the most sick (elderly and preexisting condition groups), should be prioritized. But it does make sense to give it to healthcare workers, becuase if they get it, the virus would be all beat up from the persons immune system and not spread as easily.

Her argument is you can risk getting a severe case of COVID, and risk spreading to someone who could end up in the ICU, or get a vaccine that may make you feel a little under the weather for a day worst case, and make COVID seem like a little cold or not felt at all when you do get it. I'll go with the latter.

Again, all this to add to the conversation. Don't get me started on the mask debate haha. I believe in science and facts and will change my opinion when the facts change. For which my sister-in-law would respond, "now you're sounding like a scientist and not a moron." Cheers!

Again, share as another perspective to add to the conversation.

*Updated: For the record, if you are still skeptical of the vaccine, I'm not calling you an anti-vaxxer. I fully support skepticism and don't think anyone should be labeled this or that automatically. This is a new experience for everyone. The above info is just what brought me to 'OK, the vaccine seems safe enough for me.'

Great read and awesome post!


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When it comes to covid it is hard to find fault with folks who are distrustful of the media or politicians and the government. And it is 100% because of the media, politicians, and the government. Did a quick search and here are a few headlines from late summer and early fall:

Bill Gates Wonders Whether FDA Can Be Trusted on a Covid Vaccine
By Erik Schatzker
Kamala Harris- Trump’s Vaccine Can’t Be Trusted
BY LAURIE GARRETT
Biden, Seizing on Worries of a Rushed Vaccine, Warns Trump Can’t Be Trusted
By Sydney Ember
Past vaccine disasters show why rushing a coronavirus vaccine now would be 'colossally stupid'
By Jen Christensen, CNN
Elon Musk doubles down on Covid-19 skepticism and says he won't take future vaccine
By Ganesh Setty, CNN Business
Majority of people say they won’t take COVID-19 vaccine within first year
By Hannah SparksJuly 29, 2020 | 5:45pm | Updated

Today if you posted any content that aligned with any of the above headlines on social media, it would be "fact checked" and removed. All of the above sources are mainstream and several from CNN just a few months ago. What changed in these few months? Science? More like politics. Wonder what our covid experience would have been if there was not a presidential election this year or there happened to be a D in the Whitehouse.

Cracks me up that people will shame folks who are hesitant to get the covid zombie juice (credit to the OP for a great post title) because of possible yet unknown future side affects from a vaccine and all of the politics involved. Those dang Cousin Eddies are just a bunch of knuckle dragging. anti science hicks, who want to kill grandma and the bubble boy next door, etc. Yet pro covid vaxers then turn around and scold others about the possible yet unknown future side affects of covid backed by hearsay and facebook rumors. Both of them are really the same thing. To each his own.

What I do know, for me personally and for my family is that we have already had covid. We live in a blue county in a red state. We all have to wear masks every day at work and school as well when we are shopping and we still got it. Our blue county intently follows covid political science, has over the past three weeks had worse covid numbers than the red counties around us without any mandates. Makes you wonder about science just a bit. At any rate the wife and kids all had mild cases and lost their sense of taste. We all live under the same roof and I was never symptomatic nor was I tested, but I was probably counted as a probable case. (Gotta respect probable science) Much of my extended family had the same experience. For us, we will drag our knuckles, kill the grandparents as well as the bubble boy next door, and get on with life without a vaccine.

For those of you who would shame me for murdering my fellow man because I will pass on the vaccine, I am sure that you are right behind those folks who would support prohibition, banning big gulps, and a complete ban on tobacco as well. Think of all of the tragic unnecessary deaths from from alcohol, obesity, and everything tobacco. Who better to save us from ourselves than the government and scientists who would support those types of mandates? Please express your virtue by supporting those noble causes to save humanity from living. Please do not complain about your freedoms, it is for the greater good.

I would Never shame you or anyone for not taking vaccine. I think everyone should have a choice and not be forced into anything.

I am curious on your comment about getting despite all precautions. You said you live in a blue county in a red state. How big is the population. All the major cities got hit hard early now the most cases are middle rural America.

I used to not by the mask stuff, but more non biased research coming out they do help. My wife works in the PICU and around COVID patients. All the patients she’s been exposed to that they find out has COVID, never spread it to anyone. and they were only wearing the surgical mask had not not yet sent to COVID ward where there are more extreme control measures like N95 masks.

The problem I believe (key is believe I have no way of proving other than sharing observations) is that there are groups of people who do not wear masks and do not social distance. For whatever reasons. Research is showing coffee shops and restaurants bars being hot spots. I can speak from experience with family members, and friends and neighbors that the college aged kids are very lax about all this and going out and bring it home to whomever. That is a major source of spread.

Another spreader are low income workers who live in communal housing and traveling and working together. What people forget is this virus spreads super easy. And we are asymptomatic for a long time.

my point is we still have a lot of people not wearing masks, our not wearing them correctly. Research from other countries not controlled by our right or left media have found they help.

So the more people wear them the more it helps. The vaccine will help with the spread, so the more vaccinated the better. If you wish to not partake in either I think that is fine as again, I’m not one to say force people. But I encourage everyone to please wear a mask correctly when inside or not able to distance outside.

I do hate the smug buttholes at my kids playground, or the people walking down the street by themselves on a hot sunny day, who wear masks and give you a dirty look if you don’t have one because they’ve made it a political statement. Fresh air and some distance seems to be the best way to avoid spreading and supported by most research.

But the people who walk around a grocery store or any store not wearing a mask and grinning because they are making a statement are buttholes.

I agree it’s appropriate to be skeptical of something new, but this technology is not actually new, just being distributed in on scale never seen before. at least that is how it was explained to me.

Sorry for any typos my phone autocorrect is a little dyslexic.
 
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"30 teammates" on a basketball team?????
3 teams....Freshmen, JV and Varsity. They practice together and some kids play on 2 different teams. It includes 7-10 middle school kids that play up so they can learn the system.

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