Tanget Theta 3-15x50mm Scope Evaluation

[WeiserBucks]

NF ATACR- have used a lot. A lot. Have tested more than 20. They work. They have a failure rate of course, but it much lower than anyone else.

S&B PMII- have used a bunch. Tested more than 20. Some of them exhibit zero shifts from impacts- not all, and their overall failure rate is significantly higher than NF Milspecs, though less than most others. Still, a decent scope.

Gen 2 Razor- 100% that I have used and seen used, including the much vaunted 1-6x have failed and/or lost zero with sub 4K rounds- save one. I have used a lot and put a lot of rounds through them by anyones definition.


Tangent Theta- don’t know yet.

Minox ZP5- don’t know yet. I can say that the ZP8’s have catastrophe failures from repeated impacts.

Hendsoldt- have seen a bunch, though older. Generally didn’t see many issues, though haven’t put any through evaluation.

Steiner Military- six (6) in the last 12 months. Every single one failed with no abuse. The eyepieces become loose and fail big time. They also loose zero from side impacts.

Both of these were zeroed prior to a 12 hour car ride where with were in padded cases- no abuse, just vibration.
View attachment 351426
View attachment 351427

6.5 CM on left, .3 mil Yo, and .2 right shift. 338 on right .1 down, and .2 left shift.
View attachment 351430

Rezeroed. 1 day later on the 6.5CM-
View attachment 351431

This has been consistent with all that I have seen.

Khahles- a dozen or so. Several complete failures, and they don’t like side impacts.

Leupold Mk6/8- haha. The Leupold Mark 6 failures were only eclipsed by the Leupold Mark 4 variable failures.

Here’s the last brand new Mk6 mil scope-
View attachment 351433

Initial zeroing and grouping at 100 yards-
View attachment 351435

428 round later-
View attachment 351436



I can keep going.





I could show in five minutes in front of you, that it is t the case. I’m just a dude on the internet- do not believe anything I say. I guess you have two choices. Seek confirmation bias- go ask others who haven’t tested their stuff, then feel better when they tell you I’m FOS. Or, test yourself and find out if marketing and people’s perception is true.




You have a serious lack of understanding of what militaries and governments do with regards to procurement, testing, selection, or use by soldiers.

When you say a scope failed, are you meaning failed your testing criteria or actually mechanically broke?

 

[Formidilosus]

Harsh use on a military scope is a given. Both harsh use and harsh conditions.

Maybe, maybe not. People would be surprised by how much babying happens with sniper optics by soldiers- not all, but most. And neither scenario could those soldiers tell you if scopes are maintaining zero. Ammunition lot to lot has a zero shift- that is zero with one lot #, the very next lot# isn’t zeroed. The very first thing that mil snipers do is check zero, and rezero. Like every single range trip. They don’t pull the same lot numbers each time- so they have to rezero Therefore they couldn’t tell you if scopes are shifting. Not to mention the pathetically few rounds that most snipers actually shoot (Frank has a good podcast that discusses).

 

[Formidilosus]

I appreciate what he has found in his example. He mentioned the ZP5 did not lose zero.

Negative. The ZP5 did lose zero. Now, there is a couple of things that make it sketchy to say definitively that it was a scope issue, so it gets an asterisk. It also has not had the full drop eval done. That scope is for evaluating the reticle.

 

[Formidilosus]

When you say a scope failed, are you meaning failed your testing criteria or actually mechanically broke?

Both. Depending on what context. Lots of scopes physically break- lenses fall out or rotate, eyepiece break off completely, turrets housing shear or unscrew, etc.
For hunting, I would say anything that would cause a miss at “your” range is a fail. In general the gun and ammo combination gives a .2mil buffer the for the scope. That is- a .1 to .2 mil shift is still in the dot, and therefor isn’t noticed. Anything more than a .2 mil shift is noticed both on target and on game- that’s cause issues as close as 400 yard on deer for instance.


The big issue is that the belief that these companies, save one, actually test the scopes before you get to them, is mostly a myth. Especially so for impacts and zero retention. The shaker/recoil/drop machines test whether the scope has broken or stops functioning- it does not test whether the scopes hold zero.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I'm curious how my ZCO would stack up in this kind of testing. I've had it about a year and its seen a fair amount of medium duty use and one incident where I fell down in some rocks right on the rifle/scope. I'm not going to beat the piss out of it intentionally but I expect it to perform well with typical use and it has.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm curious how my ZCO would stack up in this kind of testing. I've had it about a year and its seen a fair amount of medium duty use and one incident where I fell down in some rocks right on the rifle/scope. I'm not going to beat the piss out of it intentionally but I expect it to perform well with typical use and it has.

Given who’s involved, they should be good. However, they were also involved with the Kahles and those had and have issues.

 

[bsnedeker]

Since we are being "clear" with one another, it's worth noting that I posted the 2 Facebook videos and 4 YouTube videos BEFORE my through-the-scope post. Came back about 20 minutes later and those videos were mysteriously taken down..........my through-the-scope post was still there though

If I didn't know any better, I would think that someone cried to the mods for those videos to be taken down.....like, maybe there's an agenda or something

Mods probably thought you were a bot....you posted like 8 TT videos in a row with no text or explanation.

 

[Jwknutson17]

Well shoot, you really are destroying a lot of optics. Assuming you are getting everyone to warranty these optics? Had pushback from anyone?

 

[WeiserBucks]

Well shoot, you really are destroying a lot of optics. Assuming you are getting everyone to warranty these optics? Had pushback from anyone?

Great question!

 

[Jwknutson17]

I'm curious how my ZCO would stack up in this kind of testing. I've had it about a year and its seen a fair amount of medium duty use and one incident where I fell down in some rocks right on the rifle/scope. I'm not going to beat the piss out of it intentionally but I expect it to perform well with typical use and it has.

I've had 5 ZCOs and haven't an issue with "normal" non abuse, use. I would think Jeff and crew would have brought some of the durability over from NF.

 

[WeiserBucks]

So far my ZCO has endured more than I thought it would have to! It still works great and hasn't given me any issues even after a big fall in the rocks. Aside from a worse unforeseen accident, I don't think it'll get used any harder than it has already. I have plenty of hammers and lawn darts that I don't have to use my scope for. My NF ATACR has seen much worse and it hasn't skipped a beat either.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well shoot, you really are destroying a lot of optics. Assuming you are getting everyone to warranty these optics? Had pushback from anyone?

No on the warranty. At least not all. For private purchase optics, I/we haven’t had many issues, though zee Germans can be obstinate. Lots of them are not my optics and I do not do anything with warranties. Buddies who’ve had them fail haven’t had major issues getting them repaired, though lots of companies like to say “this is the first time this has a happened”… to a person who has had the same failure repaired multiple times.

In general, if scopes are going to be used/abused, they do not get warrantied.

 

[Formidilosus]

Zero confirm first thing today.

First shot (top left square)




High by almost .3 mils. Dropped .2 mils-





It moved .4mils (top right)


Shot another three to confirm (bottom right)



Adjusted up .2, taped and shot three more in bottom right-





Very clear there is an issue with the erector. The first shot was high, recoil reset it, and then it was low due to being adjusted. This is very common with scopes. It has only ride in the back of a padded SUV, and in the front seat of a truck.

After rezeroing I shot 65 rounds from prone, sitting, kneeling, standing offhand and supported out to 1100m. This is for a general impression of the eye box, “glass”, controls, reticle, magnification, etc.

After 65 round, I returned to check zero (head)


First shot .3 low, next two came back in.




The scope has an issue. It could be erector bound up. It was torqued with a calibrated wrench appropriately, however after checking tomorrow it will be remounted tried again. 138 rounds so far.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I really enjoy your posts Form. Thank you.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Second that. I don't have the money to buy $1000 scope for it to fail. Form has really steered me in a good direction with equipment selection. I appreciate it Form!

I just need a few thousand rounds and time off and really learn shooting better.

 

[Kimber7man]

Form, as a TT315H owner, I appreciate what you are doing and showing. Watching and reading with interest. Thanks

 

[ElPollo]

I really enjoy these deep dive threads and the reactions too them. There’s a lot to digest and discuss here. Thanks, Form. My take from your posts here is that:

• If someone really wants a $3k scope with really good glass, the Tangent Theta isn’t a bad option if they expect to treat it like it cost $3k.
• If you expect to trip on a rock and fall down a slope on top of your gun, beat your gun up on washboard roads, or survive a horse-wreck and still be able to hit something with that gun, other options may be better for you.

As someone who has actually done the latter, I appreciate you taking the time to beat up really expensive optics for us and post about it.

 

[Bubblehide]

Form's posts are nothing short of pure gold, as I can tell you from experience, while sighted in on what was sure to be a new state record Blacktail experiencing a weapon failure. Yes, not a scope failure. The utter disappointment that I rightfully did everything right to get this buck in my crosshairs and have my rifle NOT go bang when I squeezed the trigger, over and over, pulled it as hard as I could... was an experience that has stuck with me over the decades past. The last thing I want to experience is being on a trophy animal, or for that matter any animal I intend to harvest and end up experiencing a scope failure, or any failure for that matter.

I am completely with Form on his function and reliability approach over everything else.

 

[Rob5589]

I enjoy Form's scope evals. It is funny though how guys freak out at his drop tests as somehow outright trashing the scope. Do those guys not hunt? Fall down? Drop their gun off a tailgate? Bang into barricades at a match? Drive down a trashed fire road? I baby my current scope, a Vortex Viper, because I know it won't hold up to that type of abuse. The 1st gen Razor I used I didn't, never had an issue. I'd be not too happy if something that minor were to damage a 3000 dollar scope.

 

[prm]

Good stuff! Though TT is nice, I choose to be a bit more blue collar (…cheap) in my scope choices so I can’t relate well. I’d be interested in Trijicon Credo (2.5-15). Mine has been in the truck a few thousand miles and bounced around a bit. Will get to range soon to see if it moved.