"The Myth of Preference Points"

[darcytribe]

I read this article and it presents several interesting thoughts about western state preference point systems (article uses Wyoming as an example).

The Myth Of Preference Points! - Eastmans' Official Blog | Mule Deer, Antelope, Elk Hunting and Bowhunting Magazine | Eastmans' Hunting Journals

WY Resident Preference Points - A Very Bad Idea for a Number of Reasons: And here we go again. Anoth

blog.eastmans.com

Most of the ideas rang true to me and reflect a reasonable assessment of where things are now with these systems. As a guy who has been exploring the idea of trying to get into the "points game" in several states, It's totally overwhelming. Then there's always the wildcard of states making changes in the future to try and correct flaws in their system, which can change the rules suddenly out from under you. Point creep seems inevitable in every system. It starts to make a guy feel like it's a losing game before even starting.

My question, and one of the points that the article eludes to is: Is there any way for a state to get out of the rabbit hole of a preference point system?

 

[lintond]

Preference points IMO are going to be one of the biggest contributors to huntings decline. It is a large barrier to entry and only gets worse every year! Yes there are OTC opportunities but those are slowly being converted to draw as pressure exceeds hunting capacity. I would much prefer a random draw, so that I know I have the same chance as every other applicant.

To have a state get out of the pref point system you’d likely need to notify in advance so people can “burn” their points on lower point hunts. Also some sort of refund may help the sting. People wouldn’t be happy but I think long term it is better to just go back to good ol fashion lottery.


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[FLAK]

Took me 5 years before I realized it was a sham. No points for me.

 

[Anello]

I often wonder about the same thing. I got into multi-state applications about 10 years ago, and, in that time, I have seen the point creep in both preference point states and hybrid states spiral out of control. For example, I put in for a hunt that I had 100% odds on drawing in California last season and did not draw it. In one year, the points required to be in the preference pool went from up 2+ points. Additionally, that was not for a real prime hunt. Just a decent hunt that I was willing to dump almost 10 years of applications on. I'm at the point now where I am just not a believer in the value of building points in certain states for multiple species given the odds and point requirements pushing out farther and farther every year. For that reason, I am trying to put in for hunts that I can actually draw, and recalibrating my expectations.

Several folks I know have totally abandoned the point chase all together, and just hunt OTC units or put in for hunts that require 1-2 pts max. If I were to advise a person who was in my same position 10 years ago, I would tell them to save their money for a hunt lease, or LO tag, or just hunt OTC. Hunting is the idea, not paying a Gov entity for a false promise.

RE: Whether a State can remove an existing preference points or bonus points system:
One thing to consider is the fact that a Government entity making the decision to remove a preference or bonus point system in favor of a true lottery system would result in divesting thousands of citizens of a vested interest. What I mean is that there may be Due Process arguments to be made to prevent an Agency from collecting funds for "points" and then divesting individuals of those points due to a legeslative policy change (ie. a "taking" by the Gov). While nobody has a property interest in the points that we collect, we certainly have a financial interest in them that would need to be addressed, legally, if an agency were to simply discontinue an application system that thousands of citizens have been paying into for X years. For that reason, when a state goes from bonus to preference or from no points to points, the change is likely permanent.

I hate points, and I have my own personal viewpoint on what a "better" system would look like. But, so does everyone else. So, I don't want to suggest a better system. Rather, I would support no system, and equal opportunities for all hunters. But, given the above, a removal of existing point systems is likely never going to happen.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

once in a while you gotta tip the hat.

that article was spot on!

 

[Trial153]

Keep in mind it was written from a residents perspective, not that several of the points do carry over.
Till there is a mutistate hard yearly cap on applications everything else is bandaid

 

[rob86jeep]

I don't mind some states having a point system while others are lottery only. Point creep and people saying they wished they hadn't started the point game years ago are only for certain circumstances. If you start collecting points for the goal of hunting one of the "trophy" units in 10, 15, 20 years, then I agree it's probably not a smart investment. I collect points in places I want to hunt in the next few years but don't have the time this year. So in a few years when I'm ready to hunt there again, I'll have a few points so it opens my options up a little. It all depends on what your plans/goals are.

The one good thing about points is it lets you plan a little more then a straight lottery system.

As for states getting away from the points system, all they would need to do is have a a grace period of 5 years or so. If people can't/won't be able to use their points they currently have with a 5 year notice, they really have no foot to stand on complaining to the state.

 

[wapitibob]

If you're going to hunt out west you'll be dealing with point systems. My suggestion is to learn how they work in the states you want to hunt, have realistic expectations on what you can draw and when, and you'll be fine.

 

[BluMtn]

Washington has one of the most screwed up points draw systems in the US I believe. This fall I was standing around a campfire with 3 friends that we all hunt. All four of us were over 20 points for branched antler tags in our part of the state. That in it self is enough to keep me up at night, but two years ago I ran into a gentleman that was looking for a branched antler bull in the area we were in. I had watched a pretty decent bull earlier in the day and told him I could take him to one. I pointed down into the area where the bull was and his response was that he was looking for something closer to the road as this was his fourth tag. I have run into numerous people who are on their second or third tag. We have an over run of cougar but the have quotas that once that quota is met they close the season in that unit, doesn't matter that you still see cougar on a regular basis. Washington game dept. is more worried about being environmentally green that wildlife management. Basically I have nothing good to say about them.

 

[Maverick1]

If you're going to hunt out west you'll be dealing with point systems. My suggestion is to learn how they work in the states you want to hunt, have realistic expectations on what you can draw and when, and you'll be fine.

Bob has it right.....

 

[Bulldawg]

You contradicted yourself in just that post, if points were keeping people out of hunting you wouldn't see the overcrowding and pushing more places into a draw. And hunter numbers aren't decreasing in the states (the west) that are utilizing preference points. Numbers are decreasing in the states that do not have a point system (eastern states). I think that their is a correlation though, a reason that people keep applying for these high points units is because of the allure of an awesome Primo's style hunt. If there were hunts like this back east it would create the same allure I bet.

Points are retarded though, the fact that there are units that a 12 year old can start applying and will be 60+ before they would be eligible to draw that tag is ridiculous. I'm glad that every state is different and I don't think that there is a state that runs their applications perfect but that's ok. Hopefully there will be some improvements down the line and things will change.

Preference points IMO are going to be one of the biggest contributors to huntings decline. It is a large barrier to entry and only gets worse every year! Yes there are OTC opportunities but those are slowly being converted to draw as pressure exceeds hunting capacity. I would much prefer a random draw, so that I know I have the same chance as every other applicant.

To have a state get out of the pref point system you’d likely need to notify in advance so people can “burn” their points on lower point hunts. Also some sort of refund may help the sting. People wouldn’t be happy but I think long term it is better to just go back to good ol fashion lottery.


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[FLAK]

Sometimes you just have to re-assess the situation. As I've gotten older
I've changed my hunting philosophy. I've come to realize things I do and dont
like about hunting and adjusted accordingly. I still LOVE to hunt, just not the
same way for the same creatures. I have found that I find it much more enjoyable and I almost always have the whole place to myself. For me, that's what its all about.

 

[FLAK]

And yes, you CAN hunt out West without being in the points sham.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

Did anyone read the article?

Probably not, but let’s hear your opinion anyways.

 

[FLAK]

Yes, I did.

 

[lintond]

You contradicted yourself in just that post, if points were keeping people out of hunting you wouldn't see the overcrowding and pushing more places into a draw. And hunter numbers aren't decreasing in the states (the west) that are utilizing preference points. Numbers are decreasing in the states that do not have a point system (eastern states). I think that their is a correlation though, a reason that people keep applying for these high points units is because of the allure of an awesome Primo's style hunt. If there were hunts like this back east it would create the same allure I bet.

Points are retarded though, the fact that there are units that a 12 year old can start applying and will be 60+ before they would be eligible to draw that tag is ridiculous. I'm glad that every state is different and I don't think that there is a state that runs their applications perfect but that's ok. Hopefully there will be some improvements down the line and things will change.

I think that likely has to do more with public land access than points systems. Points sound good but once you’ve been in it long enough to see the creep factor it hits home.


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[fwafwow]

Interesting article. Not sure how much is based on his informed opinion vs. speculation and anecdotes vs. research (and I for one am not in a position to judge, as I haven't done the research), but it appears (to me, at least - imho) to be a mix of all three. There is nothing wrong with that approach, but I'd be interested to know which of the arguments/reasons are based on objective data.

FWIW, I tend to agree with the conclusion. I had thought about starting the points process for my 19 year old son, but decided it's too much of a PITA and will just encourage him to save money, try for hybrid/random draw states and/or OTC.

 

[Fatcamp]

I would vote for resident WY points just to see that guy be unhappy. His articles ruined our chance to hunt a favorite area of Wyoming. So lame.

 

[wapitibob]

There is nothing wrong with that approach, but I'd be interested to know which of the arguments/reasons are based on objective data.

WY point total reports discount #1

Having talked to the person that was responsible for the 5%/5% nr caps in AZ a year before that change started, he's wrong there too.

If a random system was more attractive, there wouldn't be point proposals in ID and for E/D/A in WY, which prompted the article.

etc

etc

you could make the argument for either side depending on your agenda

 

[Big Ace]

I hate points. I love points.