"The Myth of Preference Points"

[LostArra]

They could keep the fees exactly where they are, reduce NR allocation of LQ tags from 16% to 10% and still increase revenue...

I'm sure you are correct but explain the math please

 

[5MilesBack]

I couldn't disagree more that true pref point systems are fair. To take a limited resource that is held in trust for all the people of the state and eliminate any chance a hunter has to utilize said resource simply because he didnt have the ability to participate early in the game is anything but fair.

I'm not understanding what you're saying here. You don't need to have played the game early........just play, especially for a resident. I'm 54 and I play the PP game every year. For the most part you can have a very good idea how many points you need to draw in each unit. Many units only take a point or two and still provide quality hunting. Ya, it sucks for NR's that need 6+ points to draw some of those same units, but all NR's are in the same boat.

Nobody ever said life was supposed to be fair. Colorado's PP system worked very well for decades.......until this recent hunting explosion we've had here in the past 10-15 years. They can't really ditch it now with so many people invested in it. Many of the units still have similar numbers of tags as they used to and new people are drawing those tags every year. Heck, in NM I've known guys that have drawn the same units three years in a row, while others are still applying without drawing. Is that fair? Not that it needs to be.

 

[ahlgringo]

Paying your dues? Oh please. That might be valid if you could actually guarantee that paying your dues would get you something. There are units all over the west that people will never be able to draw simply because they weren't able to get on board before point creep took hold.

Nobody is going to guarantee you that a resource is going to remain available, likewise nobody is guaranteeing you that others that have been paying their dues may decide to hunt "your" unit. Has nothing to do with fairness though, each and every guy that will draw before you has been in line before you.

Explain to me how a random draw where everyone has the same draw odds is not fair. So maybe some guy draws two years in a row and it takes another guy 5 years...so what, they both had the same chance. I'd rather have some chance,than none at all.

That is your bias, and given your situation (mine is not much different) I understand it. But plain and simple- its cutting in line to equal distribution of a limited resource. Notice- equal distribution, not equal chance at distribution = fairness.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm sure you are correct but explain the math please

No problem...full price elk tags have a statutory cap of 7250 for NR's. After the 16% of the LQ full price tags are drawn, the balance is made up by issuing general elk tags to reach the 7250 cap.

So, if you drop the 16% LQ allotment to 10%, the additional 6% would be issued as general tags.

If you look at the drawing odds for Wyoming NR general tags, you'll notice that the special fee general tags have a lot of demand...as in 2 points to be assured a tag in the preference point draw.

With the increase in general tags via the reduction of 6%, that puts a lot more tags up for grabs in the special NR general pool...that means more $$$ to the GF.

 

[LostArra]

No problem...full price elk tags have a statutory cap of 7250 for NR's. After the 16% of the LQ full price tags are drawn, the balance is made up by issuing general elk tags to reach the 7250 cap.

So, if you drop the 16% LQ allotment to 10%, the additional 6% would be issued as general tags.

If you look at the drawing odds for Wyoming NR general tags, you'll notice that the special fee general tags have a lot of demand...as in 2 points to be assured a tag in the preference point draw.

With the increase in general tags via the reduction of 6%, that puts a lot more tags up for grabs in the special NR general pool...that means more $$$ to the GF.

Got it, I think.
So the 7250 stays in place for full price tags but 6% more of those tags will be general (special and regular) rather LQ.

Has there been any discussion regarding making landowner tags transferable, (for sale). I've talked to a couple of ranchers who would like that opportunity, obviously.

 

[Ratbeetle]

Nobody is going to guarantee you that a resource is going to remain available, likewise nobody is guaranteeing you that others that have been paying their dues may decide to hunt "your" unit. Has nothing to do with fairness though, each and every guy that will draw before you has been in line before you.

Which is exactly why everyone should have an equal opportunity to draw.

I've yet to hear a good reason why someone who has bought points for a few more years somehow has more of a right to hunt than a resident that just moved to a state or a NR that just entered the draw. You're talking like this a line into a movie, not a publicly owned resource.

That is your bias, and given your situation (mine is not much different) I understand it. But plain and simple- its cutting in line to equal distribution of a limited resource. Notice- equal distribution, not equal chance at distribution = fairness.

You're looking for equality of outcome, i.e. everyone waits 10 years and then gets to hunt a certain unit. I get it, especially if you're holding a stack of points. Unfortunately, that's not the way it shakes out. Due to demand far outpacing supply of a limited resource, point creep means every year, the guys still in "line" have to wait longer than the guys who went before until you get to point where the points required to draw is unattainable for newcomers and more-or-less a random draw for the max point holders. Worst of both worlds, imo.

What I'd like to see is equality of opportunity. The outcomes might not be equal, but every guy has the same opportunity.

And let me be clear, it might sound like I'm complaining but I'm really not. I understand the system. I understand that I'm waaaaaaaay behind the curve being a relatively new resident to the west and I'm ok with that. I'm cool with it not being "fair" as long as guys call it what it is. That whole don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining thing.

Thankfully there are still good hunts in low point units and there is OTC which I am very grateful for. It's a blessing just to be a resident out here and have the chance to hunt species I only dreamed about when I lived in the midwest. Unfortunately, with the growing popularity of western hunting, I just don't think this system is sustainable for the long term.

 

[BuzzH]

Got it, I think.
So the 7250 stays in place for full price tags but 6% more of those tags will be general (special and regular) rather LQ.

Has there been any discussion regarding making landowner tags transferable, (for sale). I've talked to a couple of ranchers who would like that opportunity, obviously.

No talk of transferable landowner tags and it would never fly here...residents would come unglued.

Its never even been attempted via legislation since I've lived here (20 years) its that contentious. Legislators would be voted out of office if they even tried to run a bill to allow that.

 

[Trial153]

No talk of transferable landowner tags and it would never fly here...residents would come unglued.

Its never even been attempted via legislation since I've lived here (20 years) its that contentious. Legislators would be voted out of office if they even tried to run a bill to allow that.

Too bad other states didn’t treat LO tags the same way.

 

[mcfd45]

I’m gonna have an unpopular opinion here. I am never one to claim “privilege” or “discrimination”.
But can anyone tell me how the point system isn’t discriminatory to younger people or those that are less wealthy?
I look at areas that take 20 years to draw and I say “ no kid could ever draw those”

The system is broken. I would recommend a system like MI elk where it is a draw and you get more chances every year.

 

[sndmn11]

Nobody is required to apply for the highest point units.

 

[Rich M]

Being 22 and so far behind the curve on preference points and having limited funds. The preference points system discourages me from even trying as a non resident. Most places require 3-5 preference points to be considered to have decent chances. Random draw and OTC is much more appealing to me even if I’m in worse areas. My intentions are to get out and hunt, not sit for years waiting for the opportunity to hunt.

Dude - I'm 50. Been on 1 antelope hunt and 1 muley hunt. Did combat antelope and got 2 while experiencing what folks do to others when hunting tight quarters. Got a 159-inch muley on my first muley hunt this past season. 2017 and 2019 hunts. I'm saving points for 2 more hunts and then will collect a pile of points (10 or more) for the year I retire and do a real antelope hunt that year.

So if you do 4 pts per hunt, that's 8 good/better quality hunts you are throwing away between your age and mine. So, if you are giving up at 22 - IMO, you are making a bad call. I selected 2 states for the hunts and am collecting points in 1 state only. Have no desire to chase rainbows everywhere - just want a couple of hunts with nice scenery and low people numbers.

Can you comprehend the aspect of planning and waiting for/anticipating something special? Try it, you won't regret it. Jumping into the chaos of OTC hunting isn't where they make the videos that lit your fire.

 

[Rich M]

I’m gonna have an unpopular opinion here. I am never one to claim “privilege” or “discrimination”.
But can anyone tell me how the point system isn’t discriminatory to younger people or those that are less wealthy?
I look at areas that take 20 years to draw and I say “ no kid could ever draw those”

The system is broken. I would recommend a system like MI elk where it is a draw and you get more chances every year.

If you go to Disney, you get in line and wait your turn to get on the ride. (even the priority tickets that cost more have lines these days)
If you get in the food stamps line, you get in line and wait your turn.
You teach your kids to be patient and wait their turn.

See where I'm going here?

It is like getting that number at the deli counter of your favorite grocery store. It holds your place and presents a fair opportunity as opposed to being there with a crowd and fighting to be heard and served.

If I get enough points to draw the tag, then I apply for it and plan my life around that happening. Otherwise it is a chaotic thing and I may or may not be able to go with the responsibilities of life getting in the way.

Is this a generational thing? All the young folks need instant gratification and the older generations are comfortable waiting their turn?

 

[Poser]

If you go to Disney, you get in line and wait your turn to get on the ride. (even the priority tickets that cost more have lines these days)
If you get in the food stamps line, you get in line and wait your turn.
You teach your kids to be patient and wait their turn.

See where I'm going here?

It is like getting that number at the deli counter of your favorite grocery store. It holds your place and presents a fair opportunity as opposed to being there with a crowd and fighting to be heard and served.

If I get enough points to draw the tag, then I apply for it and plan my life around that happening. Otherwise it is a chaotic thing and I may or may not be able to go with the responsibilities of life getting in the way.

Is this a generational thing? All the young folks need instant gratification and the older generations are comfortable waiting their turn?

It wouldn’t be difficult to argue that the “old folks” amassed points without the point creep hanging over their heads nor the near amount of competition. They drew their hunts and they are still drawing their hunts. If you’re a 28 year old in 2020 wanting to get into Western hunting, you face an entirely different point reality than a 28 year old in 1985. In short, you’re post reads a little “ok boomer.”

 

[sndmn11]

It wouldn’t be difficult to argue that the “old folks” amassed points without the point creep hanging over their heads nor the near amount of competition. They drew their hunts and they are still drawing their hunts. If you’re a 28 year old in 2020 wanting to get into Western hunting, you face an entirely different point reality than a 28 year old in 1985. In short, you’re post reads a little “ok boomer.”

That 28yo could have hunted elk 32x in Colorado already in his/her lifetime....probably without gaining or using any points. At least in Colorado, the only reason a person isn't hunting is by their own choice.

 

[jfs82]

Nobody is required to apply for the highest point units.

This is where Im at, Im very new to hunting, but 36. I have decided I'm never going to bother trying to draw 20+year tags. But I will have 2-4 states going where I can draw an ok hunt with 1-3 points. Would I like to draw a premium AZ elk tag? sure would. But it is what it is.

 

[Tbaxl]

Dude - I'm 50. Been on 1 antelope hunt and 1 muley hunt. Did combat antelope and got 2 while experiencing what folks do to others when hunting tight quarters. Got a 159-inch muley on my first muley hunt this past season. 2017 and 2019 hunts. I'm saving points for 2 more hunts and then will collect a pile of points (10 or more) for the year I retire and do a real antelope hunt that year.

So if you do 4 pts per hunt, that's 8 good/better quality hunts you are throwing away between your age and mine. So, if you are giving up at 22 - IMO, you are making a bad call. I selected 2 states for the hunts and am collecting points in 1 state only. Have no desire to chase rainbows everywhere - just want a couple of hunts with nice scenery and low people numbers.

Can you comprehend the aspect of planning and waiting for/anticipating something special? Try it, you won't regret it. Jumping into the chaos of OTC hunting isn't where they make the videos that lit your fire.

you pretty much proved mine and other people’s point. You are 50 and are collecting points till you retire to get the hunt you want. If waiting that long is alright with you go ahead. As well as I am speaking purely on elk hunting on this part, I can find a antelope or mule deer tag every year I just can’t be picky about the state. But being that points system is expensive to play in to on top of buying tags it isn’t very feasible for me. Colorado is $100 per preference point, so I could easily spend hundreds each year with zero return. The points system makes no sense for me to play financially.

 

[Poser]

That 28yo could have hunted elk 32x in Colorado already in his/her lifetime....probably without gaining or using any points. At least in Colorado, the only reason a person isn't hunting is by their own choice.

So, wait... we’re now talking about just hunting OTC and not talking about points? Given the subject matter and subsequent posts, that’s a huge leap with regards to the application of logic. If that’s the case, then No one should be complaining since you can hunt small game in any state.

 

[Billinsd]

It wouldn’t be difficult to argue that the “old folks” amassed points without the point creep hanging over their heads nor the near amount of competition.

Point creep started pretty early on in the game. It has been getting increasing worse every year.

They drew their hunts and they are still drawing their hunts.

Let me translate what you wrote. Those who started at the beginning and early on in the draws were able to draw tags and continue to do so. Yes, I agree.

If you’re a 28 year old in 2020 wanting to get into Western hunting, you face an entirely different point reality than a 28 year old in 1985.

Yes, but there were still lines in 1985 as there are now. Of course the lines are much, much longer now.

In short, you’re post reads a little “ok boomer.”

No need to name call, especially your elders. Didn't your parents teach you about respect, especially to respect your elders? Lastly, he's not a boomer, he's a Generation X'r. He's 50 and too young to be a boomer. LOL.

 

[Billinsd]

Is this a generational thing? All the young folks need instant gratification and the older generations are comfortable waiting their turn?

No need to diss the younger generation. I'm 57 and am definitely not comfortable waiting in line, but I will. I started back in the 90s, a little late to the party. I think "most" people now a days need instant gratification. I fight needing instant gratification myself. The huge problem is too many hunters wanting premium hunts. There is no happy solution.

 

[Trial153]

Something that's missing in this conversation when we're talking about point creep is that creep will happen know why to wear those points are used. So guys keep saying hunt a mid level unit if guys with Max points or close to Max points start dumping points in mid level units then now those units will creep for everybody below the Max point Holder..
There is no easy solution for this.