Theres no such thing as traditional

[Elkslayer67]

This maybe stirring the pot but I agree with William Sublette. He is talking about proficiency not effective range. And he refers to both bows having equal options ( i.e. sights, stabilizers, and release ). Everything being equal it comes down to learning proper form and anchor point. Now the effective range of both bows differs because of the speed and energy each bow delivers. The reason it takes trad users years to perfect their skill is they are usually limiting themselves to a stripped down basic bow with finger release. If you shoot a stripped down compound bow with fingers or a stripped down trad bow with fingers the learning curve is the same. All of the added equipment shortens the time to be proficient. The other point he noted is the same holding weight. Once again that will impact the effective range of a bow not the bow users proficiency ( assuming they can comfortably hold that weight back ). Because the compound users are not holding 70 lbs back on a 70 lbs bow and the trad users are, if not more.

And just to add more wood to the fire. It is the same with firearms. Added technology just shortens the time to be proficient.

 

[fatlander]

If draw weights were equal, like he said, and both were outfitted with a release, and both had sights, OP might have a point.

I bought a barebow and a compound within a month of each other 1 year ago. I couldn't hit my bag target with the recurve at 10 yards for at least a month. Bought the compound, was getting 1" groups at 60 yards in a month. The let off and pins helped me get the hang of archery. I havent touched the compound since December, shoot 100 arrows a day with the recurve, and in the last month I've finally got the recurve pretty well nailed down with 4" groups at 20-35 yards, and stacking arrows at 15.

Who shoots trad with a release? I still find the recurve to be more shaky and sensitive to perfect form.

If you were shooting 1” groups at 60 yards you should quit your day job and become a professional archer.

Shooting a compound bow proficiently for hunting purposes is so much easier than a trad bow. In two weeks time you can have someone proficient to hunt to 30 yards with a compound. You can have them shooting well in one day, but two weeks of focused practice will have them ready to hunt. A whole lot of trad guys refuse (can’t ethically) to shoot that far.


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[William Sublette]

I'm not trolling


But I did get lost down a google rabbit hole last night. Ended up on some site that compiles archery, and bowhunting photos/posts from Instagram.

I never spent much time on Instagram. I realize now I'm swimming upstream.

If people spent as much time ingraining a simple repeatable form, as they did typing out hashtags, they be badass archers in no time.




"Traditional" archery just isn't as difficult as its made out to be.

Get a 30lb bow, develop your form at 10 yds, work your way back up to hunting weight.

You'll be amazed how good you really are.



It doesn't take years.


You can be deadly, and ethical to 25-30 yds in a month or two.




Its just Archery.

 

[Stickbow]

"You can be deadly, and ethical to 25-30 yds in a month or two. "

I would love to see someone try this, my guess is no way though. I've been shooting longbows my whole life, and I still don't think 30 yards is a chip shot with one. If you shot every day with a coach maybe...

 

[Beendare]

Yeah we disagree....becuase you are comparing apples to oranges.

The accuracy achieved in a short time with compound/stick is not even close to comparable.....partially due to the compound being MUCH easier to aim at full draw.

What % of people shoot a compound barebow with fingers? Less than 1%?

Many of the latest compounds are so short, it would be downright impossible to get them to tune shooting fingers.

My bet is that the OP has little experience with stick bows has no kills with a stick.

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[smoke]

I think it would take someone of extraordinary natural ability to get good out to 30 yards in a matter of months. For the average person, it is far easier to get proficient with a compound than any kind of traditional gear. If it were otherwise, I don't know why anyone would buy a compound. I know I bought one for that very reason many years ago - and went back to trad gear because of the added challenge. Now I will admit, my natural abilities are limited . . .

 

[Warmsy]

If you were shooting 1” groups at 60 yards you should quit your day job and become a professional archer.

Shooting a compound bow proficiently for hunting purposes is so much easier than a trad bow. In two weeks time you can have someone proficient to hunt to 30 yards with a compound. You can have them shooting well in one day, but two weeks of focused practice will have them ready to hunt. A whole lot of trad guys refuse (can’t ethically) to shoot that far.


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Can you actually make money doing that? I really wanted this spring to see how I stack up at a competition of some sort... haven't had much work since March, anyway!

 

[fatlander]

Can you actually make money doing that? I really wanted this spring to see how I stack up at a competition of some sort... haven't had much work since March, anyway!

If every single group you shoot at 60 yards is 1”, you absolutely will make money.


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[Billy Goat]

It takes well over a month to develop a consistent finger release.


It's repetitive muscle memory to develop. Say it takes 5k shots to get it down reasonably. I think it would be more than that. That is 167 shots a day for a month. I'd say starting out you would be better to be taking 50 shots or less a day to prevent form issues from fatigue. I'm not arguing that to be proficient with a recurve you should be shooting anywhere near as far as a compound. I also don't think saying ten yards is proficient. What if an animal is 12 yards? That's 20% further than your proficient range. Who wouldn't take that? Yet if you proficient range is 20, 24 is a different ball game. Trying to make the point that the range you are proficient at does apply to being proficient. You think 5 yards would be ok? I think you should feel proficient to minimum of 20 yards before going afield.

Once you get your release down you can start tuning.

This started as a debate because someone's compound blew up and it was said to just get a stick and hunt. They had one month til season. Seems the goal posts keep moving to prove a point. Throw a sight on a stick and it will help a lot. Take a release aid from a compound shooter and it will hurt, many bows it's impossible.

 

[Billy Goat]

Can you actually make money doing that? I really wanted this spring to see how I stack up at a competition of some sort... haven't had much work since March, anyway!

Of course you can make money doing that. Why don't you try since you have all kinds off free time. Get on the line with some pro shooters and see how you stack up. Hell get a few buddies together and tell them you will pay them $20 for every arrow they outshoot you. See how you handle the pressure.



If you seriously want to see how you stack up I definitely encourage you to give it a try. It can be a lot of fun. A lot of guys around here just do money shoots. Pay the entry fee and winner take all. $300 on the low side, some are upwards of $1k. Not bad for weekend work.

 

[Warmsy]

Of course you can make money doing that. Why don't you try since you have all kinds off free time. Get on the line with some pro shooters and see how you stack up. Hell get a few buddies together and tell them you will pay them $20 for every arrow they outshoot you. See how you handle the pressure.

View attachment 205410

If you seriously want to see how you stack up I definitely encourage you to give it a try. It can be a lot of fun. A lot of guys around here just do money shoots. Pay the entry fee and winner take all. $300 on the low side, some are upwards of $1k. Not bad for weekend work.

$54,000 for the Vegas shoot. That's nuts! I'm not finding any money shoots here in northern California. Where would I find something like that? None of the events I'm seeing online mention prize money.

 

[Billy Goat]

$54,000 for the Vegas shoot. That's nuts! I'm not finding any money shoots here in northern California. Where would I find something like that? None of the events I'm seeing online mention prize money.

If you join a local archery club and ask around I'd assume people will know of some. I think they put them on Facebook around here, I'm not on it so I don't know. Around here May thru July you can usually find a few.

Last one I was at one of the guys shooting had just won 3k at the ASA shoot. There is money to be had with it. A lot of it is contingency payout. That means you fill out paperwork with a company whose products you use, if you place you get a certain amount of money.

 

[Montana Slim]

I guess I understand that there is this attitude towards trad as being this impossible pursuit with the 'struggle stick' that may not be warranted... However, there is some reason for that mindset. Just concentrating on the bows gives you part of the picture, what about arrows? I think many people have been turned off of trad, just trying to get arrows to shoot and understanding how to get good flight (often made more difficult form issues?). Modern compound archery is getting farther and farther away from trad, just the same as a modern muzzle loader is getting farther and farther from an old flintlock. Technology makes things easier. (Usually!)

The argument that the more you make a modern compound like a stickbow, the more similar the abilities of a new shooter of each discipline doesn't work, and just makes the point about the difference in effort it takes to be proficient with each. I'm definitely not saying one is better than the other, but saying that the effort required to get good is the same doesn't make sense to me...

If I ever start shooting 1" groups at 60yds with my D bow and heavy woodies, I will definitely let the world know!

 

[bjfoxhoven]

I get the point “ if everything were equal between the compound and trad.” No sights, shooting off the shelf with fingers with a compound would blow up the groups. But the kicker, like stated above is the draw length consistency with the compound. I cannot remember the stat exactly but it goes something close to this: 1/8” change in anchor can affect impact like 6” or something at 30 yards. (Please correct me if someone knows the exact numbers here). That alone makes the compound a winner even with all aspects equal. No one has a consistent anchor after a month of shooting (even a 20lb bow). Good discussion, but it’s out there.

 

[briscoetab]

I think it would take someone of extraordinary natural ability to get good out to 30 yards in a matter of months. For the average person, it is far easier to get proficient with a compound than any kind of traditional gear. If it were otherwise, I don't know why anyone would buy a compound. I know I bought one for that very reason many years ago - and went back to trad gear because of the added challenge. Now I will admit, my natural abilities are limited . . .

I may be jumping into an ant bed here but I started shooting a recurve 2-3 months ago to go elk hunting in September. My plan was if I couldn’t pick up on the recurve within the first couple weeks I would switch to compound. I had almost zero experience with bows, I shot a compound a little bit in high school (20yrs ago)and then I shot one again for a couple months a few years ago. Other than that I had no experience with bows.

I will admit that I did have someone who is very good with compound and trad bows give me a few pointers starting out, probably a good 5 mins worth of showing me a few things. He checked me out again after a couple weeks and told me a couple of things I was doing wrong. I am also using his bows and he helped me tune my arrows after I was shooting for a bit and was starting to get the hang of it. I started with a samick with 30lb draw weight. After 3-4 weeks I was using a Palmer with 52lb limbs, which is what I’m going to hunt with.

I would say my limit right now is probably 30 but I would push it to 35 maybe or at least I’m hoping to be able to push it to 35 by September. At 30 yards on Russian boar 3D target I am in kill zone 70-80% I would say on the conservative side. Maybe that is not ethical to some but I would say on elk that would be more like 90-95% in the lungs on the conservative side. At 20 yards I would say I am pretty close to 100% on the same target but may do something really stupid 1 out of 30 shots and be slightly outside the kill zone.

I do believe the compound is a little more simpler to pick up and shoot better at further distance at least from my experience but that is with a release and sights and everything, which is why the compound was my fall back if I wasn’t make progression right off the bat with the recurve.

 

[FLS]

Dewayne Martin was the first recurve shooter to beat a compound shooting barebow in Vegas since the 70s. Identical setups identical conditions shot by world class archers and it took 30 years for a world class recurve Barebow shooter to beat a world class compound Barebow shooter. They’re not the same, not even close.

 

[bobinmi]

I agree, it doesn't take a super long time to become proficient enough to hunt. However, It takes dedication to maintain it. I can put a compound away for 9 months of the year, pick it up in august and be ready to hunt out to 40 by the time the season starts.

 

[LostArra]

I get the point “ if everything were equal between the compound and trad.” No sights, shooting off the shelf with fingers with a compound would blow up the groups. But the kicker, like stated above is the draw length consistency with the compound. I cannot remember the stat exactly but it goes something close to this: 1/8” change in anchor can affect impact like 6” or something at 30 yards. (Please correct me if someone knows the exact numbers here). That alone makes the compound a winner even with all aspects equal. No one has a consistent anchor after a month of shooting (even a 20lb bow). Good discussion, but it’s out there.

+1
Take away sights, range finder and release and the compound gets a little more "traditional". The knee jerk reaction to "Compound" assumes those things are included.

 

[William Sublette]

I have to work on my communication skills.


I wish we were all at the same archery club.


We could find a new trad curious guy, and I could show you.


But that doesn't translate in writing.



If compound guys had to hold 55lbs at full draw, it would all the sudden be a struggle stick.


If trad guys only had to hold 15% of 55lbs they would be floored how good they get.....in short order.


I realize its not practical or maybe affordable to have 25-35-45-and 55lb traditional bows, and matching arrows, but if you start low, it doesn't take long to work your way up to hunting weights once you get the hang of it.

 

[Beendare]

"IF.... IF...IF" is all you got?

Yeah..."IF" those animals would just stand still and perfectly broadside it would be easier to get a shot- sheesh.

Cmon William...you are a new stick bow guy thats full of himself...respectfully, I gotta call you out.

How many animals have you killed?
How many 3D tourneys have you won..or even placed highly in?

Give it a year in the woods and get back to us......and thats not to say a guy can't be deadly with a stick...plenty of great hunters here that get it done.

Those experienced stick bow guys aren't here running their mouth on how easy it is....

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