To Outfitters: Help me to be a better client

[Zappaman]

Been on a few hunts where the "entitled" made it difficult for the rest of us. In the old days, I used to ask the outfitter if any "writers" would be in camp and we also tried to fill the camp with as many known people as possible, via the party draw system. Share a camp with as many know individuals as you can. Ive noticed people who don't pay the going fare have the highest expectation, the loudest mouth, and are the "past, present and future commanders" of the great I am society! One deer camp I go to has someone called the "Mouth", by many who attend and want nothing to do with sharing a table at dinner.

Yes! I agree that I should be the ONLY TEXAN at camp

All joking aside (kinda, I am a Texan by birth so I can joke about it here)... if I'm paying for a FULL guided hunt (quarters, meals, and all) I don't want to be in a large (unknown group) with your opinionated "buddies".

AND... to all those outfitter/guides out there: I WANT to tip well...BUT I expect good booze (and BIG ASS 20oz. STEAKS for dinner--at east one night please!) My last guided hunt, the cook served spaghetti (TWICE in five nights) and NO steaks-- I'm a meat eater (but not famous on TV). So fed me some meat-- spaghetti is bullshit! (but I still reluctantly tipped the cook with "advice" if I ever came back).

 

[GotDraw?]

Do you talk to your clients like this? Simple question bc I’m not aware of the etiquette. And yes, it’s etiquette, not a “standard”. Don’t need the condescending correlation to a waiter, which isn’t quite applicable.

Is a packer I see twice on a 7 day hunt expecting 20%, like a guide I’m with all day everyday, or a waiter who I interact with the entire evening?

Legit question and I’d appreciate real feedback.

Thanks

@Mikido

Not condescending, just making a blunt point and adding some level of context. And, yes, I am stone-cold blunt with my clients as well.

Tip is relative to time, effort, cost. Waiters invest little real time with their clients, little physical effort, take ZERO risk and go home to a warm bed at night- yet we readily tip them 15-20%, and at expensive restaurants they are used to 20% as the floor. That, for spending perhaps 15-30 minutes of time with you while juggling their other tables and having the bus team clean up the plates/table.

Outfitters "own" the guiding business, have real business risk, keep profit in good years and suffer hard dollar losses in bad years. Guides and Packers work for the Outfitters. Guides and Packers get the majority of the tips in my mind because the Outfitter keeps the vast majority of all fees, unless the Outfitter is also guiding for you, in which case you tip them too.

If you're on a $25k guided moose hunt for a solid week, with a guide around you 24hrs/day, using his/her hard-fought knowledge of terrain and game movement, making meals and busting his/her ass guiding, then lets say you tip +/- 15-20% of that amount.

If you're getting packed in/out round trip for 2-8 hrs each way, with the packer doing the loading/tarping and then responsible for safety of you and the pack string for 4-16hrs total at a roundtrip price of $1,500 total, then +/- 15-20% of that smaller amount.

Some may think it's too generous, others not enough. That said, Outfitters, Guides and Packers all call me and my brother right back when we reach out and they squeeze us into their schedule even while telling others there's NO way they have time to drop them off or pick them up. I've had Packers make pickup runs for me up/back in total darkness, late at night when they could easily say "sorry, too busy".

A good buddy always told me: "take care of your equipment and your equipment will take care of you". Same for your packer, guide or outfitter, take care of them and you'll get the best from them.

Best,

JL

 

[Indian Summer]

Here’s a twist… I tipped a client. He booked a hunt with me and brought some friends. He rebooked with me and hunted a total of 8 times. But his partners fizzled out and on half of those hunts he came solo. So one year I said Matt I have an offer for you. He was already rebooking so I didn’t have to do anything. He was already a happy client and a solid reference so I didn’t have to do anything. I told him to pay me $1000 for his hunt. He would have a full time guide the first week so a 1 on 1. Him and the guide were good friends so he knew he could expect a good hunt. Here’s the kicker…. I told him he could stay as long as he wanted to. He laughed and said brother elk or no elk I’ll be up there for a month are you sure about this? Yep I was. He killed his bull on his own on week 2 and man did we have fun after that. I think he got back every tip he ever paid and then some. I sold that outfit in 2012 and I just talked to him last week. Friends for life.


I had a hunter from Chicago once. He booked a 10 day 1 on 1 bow hunt. Insisted that I personally guide him. He knew everything! He called all the shots. Didn’t let me pull a call out of my pack until day 5. It was a dry year and there was a ban on open fires. One night he vanished on me and ended up back at camp before me. When I got there my wife was in panic mode. He had built a fire 10 feet high! The wood was piled over 4 feet high. It was windy and there were embers blowing everywhere. He was well aware of the fire ban. I asked him why such a big fire. His reply was “It’s my wood, I paid for it and I’ll burn the whole stack if I want” i reexplained the fire restrictions and calmly told him that if it happened again I’d simply call the Forest Service and let them handle it. His horse hated him because all he did is yell at it. I’ve never seen a good horse blatantly screw a guy every time he got a chance! Went straight right off of switchback turns when he damn sure knew the trail. The guy didn’t tip anyone a single dollar. When we got to his hotel at the end of his hunt his mail order Philipino ex wife that he brought with him asked “Did Byron get an elk?” I said no he didn’t. She looked at me and said oh Lord it’s going to be a miserable ride home. He had a dog they kept in an suv all week. He had a chest freezer and power inverter in back and it chewed the wires in half. He was so mad he screamed at the dog, then at his woman, threw everything in the car and sped away. I wouldn’t let that guy back in my camp for 20 grand.

There are two sides to every story. There are good guides and not so good ones. They have to start somewhere. But they do their best. There are good hunters and not so good ones but most do their best too. But there are also good human beings and shitty ones. And as you saw in an early post from a shitty one those guys sometimes think they paid to act any way they want never stopping to think about the fact that they are actually the ones who can have a huge influence on whether or not everyone chooses to go the extra mile or 20 for them. If everyone would just do unto others and respect each other the world would be a better place and so would guiding and going on guided hunts.

 

[Jordan Budd]

Love this thread and will be doing a podcast very soon about outfitting and guiding from my perspective of owning an outfit. My business is on private ground for deer and turkeys, we include meals and lodging along with a guide for every trip. And while we typically do very well on shot opportunities there are just a lot of things that we cannot control when it comes down to it. It weighs very heavy on my shoulders when a person pays what they do and the hunting conditions aren’t what either of us expected or planned for when they had booked a year or more in advance. But that is a consideration to keep in mind when booking so far out in advance. An example is this year I had my first client go home without a deer during the rifle season. That was the first gun hunt in my outfits career that had gone unpunched and honestly first that had gone over 2 days. But hot dry conditions with crops still standing led to movement being pretty low. But the things I could control was the food, lodging and atmosphere that we provided and in the end the hunter told me he had a great trip and wanted to return. When you pick a set of dates 1 year, 2 years, 3 years in advance there’s a very large amount of factors that just cannot be accounted for.

An honest discussion from both sides about realistic expectations is absolutely key. And if you’re an outfitter, don’t over promise things just to sell a hunt. If you’re the client booking, give an honest set of expectations upfront about the hunt you want for yourself and the outfitter should recognize if they just aren’t a good fit for what you’re looking for. I could go on but I’ll save some of my own examples for the podcast.

If there’s any specific questions anyone has for the episode please let me know and I’ll give my .02 on the episode. I’ve been on both sides of the coin, being guided and guiding.


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[Blackstorm]

I've been on a few guided hunts now and I've only had one bad experience so far, but the qualities of a good hunt as in friendship is communication. All the better hunts there was great communication where I told them what I wanted and more importantly what I could realistically do physically, the guides know what game is in the area and if your ability can get a chance at the game. my Elk guide I've used twice and gotten two chances at game so I'm happy as a clam, that I missed this year was not his fault as he did what he was supposed to do, and he was more disappointed in my miss than I was, his tip was the same. We did get a Deer but not as large as he wanted but it satisfied me, I reminded him that this buck is a huge memory and will last a lifetime. Yes I'm booked with my guide and outfitter again next year, why mess with success. Now the moose outfit is another story, and they were flat out crooks and thank god no longer in the business.

 

[trophyhill]

The question with tips is where and on who does it put the incentive. My friend had a guided hunt on a high quality, expensive private land hunt in a unit well known for big bulls and good success. His guide couldn’t bugle. To be clear it wasn’t that that the guide could bugle and chose not to because cow calls were more effective, the guide admitted he couldn’t bugle. This was a September archery hunt. Friend ended up calling in his own bull. The outfitter gets paid his fee, it’s fixed. Does the hunter tip? Not tipping hurts the guide most, but minimal impact to outfitter who allowed the situation in the first place. The outfitter keeps booking clients due to overall success but the guide loses.

Similar to restaurants-if the food sucks, why am I expected to tip the waiter that smooths the corners. Cooks don’t often get tips, but food is center attraction.

If i were to go on a guided hunt, id love to be part of the calling where warranted. If i had an elk coming in i dont think the guide could stop me from barking out a nervous grunt to stop the elk for a shot. If my guide couldn't bugle it wouldn't bother me. I would be prepared to call regardless. And yes i would tip the guide regardless.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Love this thread and will be doing a podcast very soon about outfitting and guiding from my perspective of owning an outfit. My business is on private ground for deer and turkeys, we include meals and lodging along with a guide for every trip. And while we typically do very well on shot opportunities there are just a lot of things that we cannot control when it comes down to it. It weighs very heavy on my shoulders when a person pays what they do and the hunting conditions aren’t what either of us expected or planned for when they had booked a year or more in advance. But that is a consideration to keep in mind when booking so far out in advance. An example is this year I had my first client go home without a deer during the rifle season. That was the first gun hunt in my outfits career that had gone unpunched and honestly first that had gone over 2 days. But hot dry conditions with crops still standing led to movement being pretty low. But the things I could control was the food, lodging and atmosphere that we provided and in the end the hunter told me he had a great trip and wanted to return. When you pick a set of dates 1 year, 2 years, 3 years in advance there’s a very large amount of factors that just cannot be accounted for.

An honest discussion from both sides about realistic expectations is absolutely key. And if you’re an outfitter, don’t over promise things just to sell a hunt. If you’re the client booking, give an honest set of expectations upfront about the hunt you want for yourself and the outfitter should recognize if they just aren’t a good fit for what you’re looking for. I could go on but I’ll save some of my own examples for the podcast.

If there’s any specific questions anyone has for the episode please let me know and I’ll give my .02 on the episode. I’ve been on both sides of the coin, being guided and guiding.


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I like the part of when booking 1,2,3 years in advance. There are so many factors in that many years…. Personally, I start booking Dec 1 for the next years hunt. This gives me basically 1 year to best take care of my clients for that year, instead of 2-3 years worth of clients. Some say if the outfitter isn’t booked years in advance they are no good, but honestly hasn’t caused me issues.

Constantly get asked what season, week, days etc are best. My honest answer to that is I don’t know, there are to many factors but my opinion and previous years have made me think this or that. I try to give my beat knowledge but there’s weather, pressure, number of hunters, recreational usage, 6 months worth of weather that can all make 1 week/season good another bad. It is what it is.


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[324matt]

Great thread. I went on my first guided elk hunt last year. I did not shoot an elk, but I had the time of my life.
I spent time preparing and put in the work to climb mountains, to shoot true, to not get cold, to be patient and not get discouraged. Though I only saw one cow elk, I did experience real life. I realized how lucky I am to be fortunate enough to be able to go on a trip like that.
I had guides, packers, camp cooks, and an outfitter who were nothing but nice to me, worked their asses off for me, and made it an adventure. I marveled at the mountains, saw how bright the stars are with no light pollution, rode my horse on the side of a cliff in the dark, experienced thundersnow, and lost weight while eating 5,000 calories a day! I heard stories and listened to the wood stove roar like a freight train.
Although I ate tag soup, I cannot wait to do it again. I tipped my guide 20% of the cost of the hunt, the cooks 10% each, and gave the packer $100 for bringing us horses after a long day out.

I listen to stories and podcasts and my heart yearns to live a life that I cannot, and for those that provide that experience to me, I am grateful and respectful.

 

[Fever Buck]

Great thread.

 

[tcpip95]

Great thread. I went on my first guided elk hunt last year. I did not shoot an elk, but I had the time of my life.
I spent time preparing and put in the work to climb mountains, to shoot true, to not get cold, to be patient and not get discouraged. Though I only saw one cow elk, I did experience real life. I realized how lucky I am to be fortunate enough to be able to go on a trip like that.
I had guides, packers, camp cooks, and an outfitter who were nothing but nice to me, worked their asses off for me, and made it an adventure. I marveled at the mountains, saw how bright the stars are with no light pollution, rode my horse on the side of a cliff in the dark, experienced thundersnow, and lost weight while eating 5,000 calories a day! I heard stories and listened to the wood stove roar like a freight train.
Although I ate tag soup, I cannot wait to do it again. I tipped my guide 20% of the cost of the hunt, the cooks 10% each, and gave the packer $100 for bringing us horses after a long day out.

I listen to stories and podcasts and my heart yearns to live a life that I cannot, and for those that provide that experience to me, I am grateful and respectful.

Great post!

 

[lubbockdave]

I will also say that we as hunters need to be honest with the outfitter and guide about our abilities. On the last hunt I booked a 1:1 because after a stroke a year before that I didn't want to slow a hunting partner down. My guide was a true gentleman about my pace and we both understood that I wasn't in terrific shape or even the shape I should have been in.
How does the saying go....to ride, shoot straight and speak the truth...... While Jeff Cooper may not have intended this to be used here, they are words to live by.

As far as 5K freeing you from conducting yourself properly, you are the type of guy I want to avoid in camp.

so much wisdom in this post! love that last sentence.

 

[Still Hunter]

Didn't read all the post. There are all levels of guided hunts. However, these can fall in on all levels. Your guides will appreciate your common courtesy. I stay in touch with four guides and other hunters that I hunted with 13 years ago still today. Sent emails yesterday. Other hunters along with me on the same trips, could not even tell you anyone's names. Your attitude has the biggest affect on the quality of the experience.

Unfortunately, there are some undesirable guides and therefore these rules are applied to the good guides not the exceptional bad ones.

Pretty Fundamental
Show up in shape.
Know your weapon and how to use it.
Have your weapon sighted in and plenty of the correct ammo.
Have the correct clothing and peripheral items for the Terrain and the Weather.
If Orange is required, have your own.
All GMU's do not have the same harvest requirements. Know before you go the the harvest requirements for the animals in the GMU area you are hunting ( Spikes or four points or 6" eye guards etc. etc.)
Have your own Range Finder.
Have your own Binoculars.
Bring your ear plugs! (at least two sets). Nothing is worse than another snoring hunter.
Get your butt out of bed/bunk. You can sleep at home. Don't be the guy always up late and unorganized.
Fall in and assist everywhere you can. That means dishes, food prep, cutting firewood, feeding stock etc. Be part of the team. Share the load. Don't be that Prima Donna.
Don't complain and whine. Not all Elk Hunts are a cake walk.
Treat others with respect and generally you will treated back with respect.

Enjoy the experience!

 

[Fullfan]

Wow.
Be sure to put that in the contract so they know what they're signing up for.

Having hired for a high end moose hunt and many drop camps, I can tell you that you're out there as a team. My guides and packers have all been treated as the best of friends, tipped very well regardless of outcome and have become good friends.

Attitude is a major contributor to success, when everyone is exhausted having a positive attitude lifts the spirits of the team.

JL

Wow sure poked a hornets nest. I have been elk hunting since 1983. Have killed my fair share of bulls and cows. I live 2100 miles from where I chase elk. I would never ever think of paying 5k or more to do it. I have always done the diy rout, more rewarding and cost way less.

I could not imagin paying that kind of money, and then have someone tell me what to do, and how to act.

I know of 5 coworkers that hunted elk w a guide, castle creek outfitters out of Salmon Idaho. Each paid 5100.00 for a 5 day hunt. 5 guys saw 3 cows elk in their 5 day hunt. The same year myself and 7 other guys hunted the same zone. We killed 8 bulls and seen 3-400 elk, and paid about what 2 of them did. Plus we hunted for 3 weeks.

I feel bad for ppl that fear attempting a westen hunt, and have to pay a guide to do everything for them. But again a fool and his money are usually soon parted.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

Some people enjoy guided hunts merely for the educational part of it and not because they prefer or want to be babysat. A lot of hunters, men and women alike, thrill on the educational quality of a guided hunt.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I've been on 4 guided hunts, 3 of which ended with a great animal taken.
However, on all 4 hunts MONEY seemed to be the driving theme which left
me with a bad taste afterwards.
On one hunt in particular I felt like I was being led around like a baby and the
guide was constantly barking orders, telling me how to hold my gun (not a safety issue).
Said I was too tall and the rifle on my shoulder stuck up even more. I needed to stay
crouched down all the time, even when glassing - or hold my rifle in my hands.
I was allowed no input whatsoever. At one point he threatened to call the outfitter
and end the hunt if I didnt do what I was told. I had to remind him who paid for the hunt.
On another hunt the guide/outfitter kept hitting me up for more money a couple times
a day. And wanted me to leave the premises the morning after killing on the first day or pay xtra for the
bunk house, after paying for a 4 day hunt. He later called a few days after the hunt to complain
that I used too many bath towels - needed more money.
I've had guides disappear when eating out and it came time to pay, and the same
guide was supposed to provide transportation to the airport after the hunt,
pulled another disappearing act and I had to pay for a taxi to the airport.
Let me add that in all instances, the guides were tipped well.
I dont have any plans for anymore guided hunts. It might happen, but no plans.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

I've been on 4 guided hunts, 3 of which ended with a great animal taken.
However, on all 4 hunts MONEY seemed to be the driving theme which left
me with a bad taste afterwards.
On one hunt in particular I felt like I was being led around like a baby and the
guide was constantly barking orders, telling me how to hold my gun (not a safety issue).
Said I was too tall and the rifle on my shoulder stuck up even more. I needed to stay
crouched down all the time, even when glassing - or hold my rifle in my hands.
I was allowed no input whatsoever. At one point he threatened to call the outfitter
and end the hunt if I didnt do what I was told. I had to remind him who paid for the hunt.
On another hunt the guide/outfitter kept hitting me up for more money a couple times
a day. And wanted me to leave the premises the morning after killing on the first day or pay xtra for the
bunk house, after paying for a 4 day hunt. He later called a few days after the hunt to complain
that I used too many bath towels - needed more money.
I've had guides disappear when eating out and it came time to pay, and the same
guide was supposed to provide transportation to the airport after the hunt,
pulled another disappearing act and I had to pay for a taxi to the airport.
Let me add that in all instances, the guides were tipped well.
I dont have any plans for anymore guided hunts. It might happen, but no plans.

Sounds like some due diligence might of avoided at least some of those issues even before you mailed the first deposit check(s) to those four different outfitters. Some healthy research goes a long way to avoiding a bad purchase. It's like buying a car or a house, or selecting a wife.

I mean, the first one might of been hard to avoid, because you never know what type of assistant guide you're going to get when the outfitter doesn't put you in contact with the planned assistant guide prior to the hunt dates. Good outfitters never have an issue putting you in contact with your scheduled assistant guide well in advance of the hunt, if you ask for him to do so. Heck, some outfitters offer to do that, without being asked.

But, the issues with the other three outfitters could have easily been avoided prior to even paying a deposit, by doing some thorough due diligence before sending any money. Outfitters who behave that egregiously always have a long history of that behavior with past clients and those clients tend to voice their opinions, such as yourself.

 

[philos]

One thing I did not see in this thread was the research one should do on the outfitters/guides and ask as many upfront questions as you can think of that will be relevant to the hunt.

It would seem some pre-hunt due diligence could help avoid issues that may arise.

I would ask things like:

What should I realistically expect in terms of quantity and quality of animals and has that changed recently? Can I reach out for updates on this prior to the hunt?

Am I able to make any changes if issues do arise-such as sleeping accommodations or working with a different guide if problems do occur?

What distance should I be ready to shoot?

What plan B exist if issues arise during the hunt that were completely unknown prior-such as wildfire or extreme weather.
——

If your research reveals concerns ask your outfitter to discuss with you. Like most things in life a bit of “pre-planning” can go a long way toward success on game day.

PS-as soon as I posted this I see the above entry stating due diligence might have helped so apparently others had the same thoughts.

 

[long hunter]

Never went on a fully guided hunt, but have hunted Bear in northern Ontario Canada with a guy who leased land and had a baiters license, the hunt cost was reasonable, he would take me to the bait site and leave after explaining the senerio I could expect when or if a bear came to the bait, I emersed myself in the hunt and all the particulars that went into the hunt, KILLED A BEAR THE SECOND DAY OF THE HUNT, The hunt did not end there the rest of the hunt spent time with the man baiting, repairing stands, skinning the bears, butchering the bear, (as well as my own) from other hunters that sort of thing, I wanted to learn as much as possible, helped out with driving the other hunters to the bait sites, and guided another hunter to his first bear, The guy I hunted under is older now and no longer hunts but he is still my friend. Even then he offered me a job helping in the business but I had to work at home and could not take off for the season. For me the hunt is not just about the kill it is the total experience involved. Good manners,willingness to help out with the camp, and the ability to listen and learn goes a long way.

 

[philos]

This is a post to get me over the number of messages I just saw for me.

Plus this is a great idea for a thread.

 

[PRC_GUY]

#1 on the list is good and positive attitude, don’t think about dollars sign.