Too much bullet?

[wildernessmaster]

About a week ago I took a shot on a deer at about 200 yards. I normally can tell immediately watching through my scope if an animal is hit. This one stood still post shot (oddly) then walked into a trot off. At the time I thought the reaction weird. I walked down and walked around in decent light and found no blood trail. Walked the edge of the field and woods for about 500 yards which I saw him exit toward and didn't find a blood trail.

I blew it off as I had intentionally aimed a bit low due to some cattle possibly being behind the animal (they were in that pasture and I didn't think they had moved that way but wanted to be conservative). I also had thought the distance was closer to 150 so it was probably a dirt shot. It was also a standing, unsupported shot and I was freezing as I had left my jacket at home. Lots of factors to cause a miss.

Oh well, better safe than sorry.

Yesterday, I was back on the same farm and had another deer come down a trail. Knew the distance. Gun dialed in for it. Gun on tripod and deer fully broadside. Pull trigger, boom, deer once again stands oddly still post shot then walk trots off. Again walk down and look for blood trail in good light for 500 yards - no Bueno.

While still looking for blood trail, I hear a deer alert. I see the deer trot off about 10 yards and it begins to come back toward me. At less than 30 yards broadside I take a shot. Deer again stands still oddly post shot then begins to buck of - I am almost certain given the way it bucked it was hit.

Walk to spot I shot it and no where within 100 yards can I find a blood trail. I walked the woods well into darkness and no deer.

Now this means one of three things:

1. I suddenly have gotten the worst case of gun yips ever in the history of hunting.
2. My gun is so off that it can't hit the broadside of a barn
3. The round I am shooting is too much for these thin NC deer and literally not expanding and shooting through.

I discount (1) given I have killed 3 critters this year (2 with bow and one with gun). I also have always killed what I have shot at. And finally these were does so I am not overly excited or nervous (big buck fever). Finally for me to miss at 30 yards? Never has happened.

I discount (2) because again the 30 yard factor would mean a gun that just 2 weeks ago killed a doe at 200 yards was massively off. Nothing on the gun feels loose nor am I away of the gun being knocked around badly enough to make a sub moa gun miss at 30 yards.

So (3). I had planned on just bow hunting all year (even in gun season) until my buddy asked me to come cull some deer. Given I moved this year, I have been getting all my guns back set up and running right (they had been in storage). My AR10/308 was the only one I felt was reasonably sighted in (from last season). It bad been worked up for my elk hunt with federal edge tlr 175 gr bullets.

My thought at the moment is these smaller deer are just not enough body to cause the bullet to expand properly. That is what is causing the odd pause after the shot. They are hit, but its so quick and a unexpanded shoot thru that they are like "what was that". The one I did kill with I could not find a solid entrance or exit wound and I think the only reason it did not do the same was the deer jumped the shot and I got more of a transverse shoot longer through the body letting the bullet expand.

Thoughts?

I am going back in today to scour the swamp and brush in better day light to see if I can find all 3.

 

[Phil j]

Before you shoot at anything you need to take your gun out and shoot it to confirm zero then I would aim for and hit the shoulder to drop them and make bullet expand waste a little meat but you are wasting whole deer.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Before you shoot at anything you need to take your gun out and shoot it to confirm zero then I would aim for and hit the shoulder to drop them and make bullet expand waste a little meat but you are wasting whole deer.

Thank you for the lecture... Not what I was asking for.

Maybe you should get your facts straight before doing so. The gun has been used for 2 years straight with a known load that shoots .75 MOA through it. It is either kept in a hard pelican case or in my safe. I built it myself and know it inside out. Between year 1 and year 2 season sight-ins the gun did not change accuracy one iota. I check my guns constantly to make sure things are tight. Oh and since just two weeks before this, I had shot a doe at 200 yards standing unsupported, I would say the gun and the shooter are working to specs. No I did not specifically sight it in this season as I had not planned on using it, but I bet if I took it right now it would be plus/minus and inch or less of center unless something between 2 weeks ago and yesterday changed - otherwise there would not be a dead doe in my fridge already.

I generally aim at the top of the shoulder. That said, there is no magic ju ju with shooting one there or slightly behind. I have raised deer and their shoulders are very complex structures that have many openings that change dramatically with very slight movements and posture changes. I also know that all of the bone structure in the shoulder is not dense. The edges of the scapula itself on thinner deer would not be much different than a thick hide.

But again thank you for the mini lecture on gun sighting in and deer anatomy. I was looking more for input on this bullet and its expanding on thin body game.

 

[Dcrafton]

About a week ago I took a shot on a deer at about 200 yards. I normally can tell immediately watching through my scope if an animal is hit. This one stood still post shot (oddly) then walked into a trot off. At the time I thought the reaction weird. I walked down and walked around in decent light and found no blood trail. Walked the edge of the field and woods for about 500 yards which I saw him exit toward and didn't find a blood trail.

I blew it off as I had intentionally aimed a bit low due to some cattle possibly being behind the animal (they were in that pasture and I didn't think they had moved that way but wanted to be conservative). I also had thought the distance was closer to 150 so it was probably a dirt shot. It was also a standing, unsupported shot and I was freezing as I had left my jacket at home. Lots of factors to cause a miss.

Oh well, better safe than sorry.

Yesterday, I was back on the same farm and had another deer come down a trail. Knew the distance. Gun dialed in for it. Gun on tripod and deer fully broadside. Pull trigger, boom, deer once again stands oddly still post shot then walk trots off. Again walk down and look for blood trail in good light for 500 yards - no Bueno.

While still looking for blood trail, I hear a deer alert. I see the deer trot off about 10 yards and it begins to come back toward me. At less than 30 yards broadside I take a shot. Deer again stands still oddly post shot then begins to buck of - I am almost certain given the way it bucked it was hit.

Walk to spot I shot it and no where within 100 yards can I find a blood trail. I walked the woods well into darkness and no deer.

Now this means one of three things:

1. I suddenly have gotten the worst case of gun yips ever in the history of hunting.
2. My gun is so off that it can't hit the broadside of a barn
3. The round I am shooting is too much for these thin NC deer and literally not expanding and shooting through.

I discount (1) given I have killed 3 critters this year (2 with bow and one with gun). I also have always killed what I have shot at. And finally these were does so I am not overly excited or nervous (big buck fever). Finally for me to miss at 30 yards? Never has happened.

I discount (2) because again the 30 yard factor would mean a gun that just 2 weeks ago killed a doe at 200 yards was massively off. Nothing on the gun feels loose nor am I away of the gun being knocked around badly enough to make a sub moa gun miss at 30 yards.

So (3). I had planned on just bow hunting all year (even in gun season) until my buddy asked me to come cull some deer. Given I moved this year, I have been getting all my guns back set up and running right (they had been in storage). My AR10/308 was the only one I felt was reasonably sighted in (from last season). It bad been worked up for my elk hunt with federal edge tlr 175 gr bullets.

My thought at the moment is these smaller deer are just not enough body to cause the bullet to expand properly. That is what is causing the odd pause after the shot. They are hit, but its so quick and a unexpanded shoot thru that they are like "what was that". The one I did kill with I could not find a solid entrance or exit wound and I think the only reason it did not do the same was the deer jumped the shot and I got more of a transverse shoot longer through the body letting the bullet expand.

Thoughts?

I am going back in today to scour the swamp and brush in better day light to see if I can find all 3.

What bullet, weight, caliber?


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[Sccritterkiller]

Too fast of a bullet...had a buddy shooting a 308 AR last year...we found everything he shot but some of them went a long way for boiler room shots..just zipped thru looked like pencil hole. Get a lighter round or slow down the one you have or start shooting thru both shoulders. My buddy opted for the double shoulder and they were DRT after that no tracking..
Around here a Booner doe is 100# most are in the 65-85# range. For the small deer around here you probably better off with some 150 gr core lokt..they seem to work well around here lot folks use them.

 

[wildernessmaster]

What bullet, weight, caliber?


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Sorry it might not have been clear in my post. 308 Win. Shooting Federal Edge TLR 175 gr. I am guessing based on barrel length and ballistics that mine is shooting 2500 fps at the barrel. Have not chrono'ed it but the shots I have taken seem to support that muzzle velocity.

 

[WhatToHunt]

Good on you for going back to search for them, good luck! I don't think it's a bad idea to shoot it at a target just to rule out anything crazy there. Had it happen to me years ago, sadly. Nothing bumped or anything that I could recall, but it sure was off when I later shot at a target to confirm. And the reaction of the deer to each shot is puzzling. Hopefully they're laying closer than expected and it was all a fluke. If you find them, it would be great to hear and interesting to see what happened.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Good on you for going back to search for them, good luck! I don't think it's a bad idea to shoot it at a target just to rule out anything crazy there. Had it happen to me years ago, sadly. Nothing bumped or anything that I could recall, but it sure was off when I later shot at a target to confirm. And the reaction of the deer to each shot is puzzling. Hopefully they're laying closer than expected and it was all a fluke. If you find them, it would be great to hear and interesting to see what happened.

Nope I agree. If I find nothing today, I am gonna sight in my 7-08. I still think its too much bullet for these small deer. When I get a chance will re-work up my 308 and see if anything is wrong.

 

[Ondavirg]

I don’t think it’s your bullet. I’ve had excellent results with the 308 edge tlr 175 gr loads on a couple deer and 9-10 pigs. I’d say as good or better results than anything I’ve used. Nice wound channels and good blood trails.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Even if you had a bullet failure and it did not expand at all. If you hit 3 deer in the lungs or heart there is no way that all 3 never bled in 500 yards or even made it 500 yards. A 30 cal hole through the vitals will kill any deer standing, I echo other comments to make sure your gun is in fact sighted in. For small deer the 308 is probably a little over kill unless your shooting lighter, fast expansion bullets this is probably more evident at close ranges. For small bodied deer it is hard to beat a 223 (with proper bullets), 243, 25-06, 257 roberts or any of the 6.5mm rounds.

 

[4ester]

Process of elimination.....

#1 Recheck zero.... you got all defensive above when someone else said it but when you listed it as your #2 reason you showed doubt. Rule it and the ammo out. Zero the same as your hunting, if your shooting off a tripod then zero it the same.

If that’s good you either need to settle down or you have a few crippled or dead deer around.

I don’t buy the too much bullet theory......



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[sndmn11]

Your #3 is a false old wives' tale. Bullet expansion begins on impact and is only limited by declining velocity and bullet design.
Penetrationn may be longer at lower velocity due to less expansion, but that is dictated by bullet design.

You missed, especially considering the cartridge and chosen bullet.

 

[Ozarkansas]

I don't have an experience with the Edge TLR bullet, but as an LR round it would make sense that it would expand better, not worse, at close range than normal hunting bullets. It could still be a bullet failure, but not because it's "Too much gun". My dad hunts deer and pigs with a .308 and barnes 150 grain bullets going fairly slow out of a short barrel. Many of them are pretty dang small and he's shooting a bullet that's probably way tougher than needed, but they still usually drop and always leave good blood trails when hit well. a .308 is an excellent caliber for small deer.

 

[Dexter Grayson]

Sounds like you’re not using enough bullet to me!

 

[Tyrus001]

Entirely to stout of a bullet for deer. Find a 150gr bullet that will shoot.

 

[Nomadx2]

A 308 is a great deer weapon. I have shot dozens of deer deer without any issues with 150-165 g.

I am not sure what you mean by aiming at the top of the shoulder? There is an area there where there are no vital organs. If you are shooting at ground level, just like bow hunting, the penetration and pass through is perpendicular to the ground meaning blood can pool in the animals lower cavity. If you hit a vital organ like the lungs, they will blow out blood.

I aim 6"-8" behind the should joint. There you are on top of the heart area, lungs, and all major arteries.

Based on your description above, you may have only hit flesh (even then there would be some blood sign), or potentially missed completely.

Checking your scope to insure it is seated properly and all screws are seated is step on. I have an issue a year ago where every 4-6th shoot was 3"-5" outside on the grouping. Took a while but I found 1 screw on my scope mount that was about 1/3 of a turn loose.

Step two, check weapon for accuracy by shooting at 50, 100, & 200 yards.

Troubleshooting a problem means you go through a process of checking everything to rule out what it is not, so that you can zero in on probable cause(s).

 

[browning2480]

I don’t buy the too much bullet either. Growing up we shot deer with 180 GR .30-06 rounds. I specifically used Winchester Failsafes and recovered a couple out of deer shot from front to back. They didn’t mushroom much at all. Yes too hard of a bullet to be ideal, but I watched 20 or more deer fall to those bullets and never lost one. In fact they barely ran at all.

Sounds to me you are asking for advice but discounting the advice that puts you at fault lol. Blame the bullet if you want, I just have never seen that issue. Holes in vitals kill deer dead. Simple. Even small holes.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Here you go:

1) It is not your bullet.
2) It is not your velocity.
3) It is not your shooting distance.
4) It is not your small deer.
5) It may be your rifle and/or scope.
6) It may be shooter error.
7) Unlikely but possible there was a twig/small tree branch in the way.

For items 1-4, if a 300 Weatherby Magnum will produce a DRT with 180 gr TTSX on a lung shot on a young Coues buck at 7 yards, your 308 Win setup is not too much especially at 30 yards.

For item 5, this is one thing that you should have done right away. It only take a moment to eliminate the rifle and scope as the issue.

For item 6, where did you aim on the deer that was at 30 yards? If at the top of the shoulder, then it is likely that you just missed high, grazed the top of the deer's back, or hit a void in the deer that won't kill them and won't produce much of (if any) a blood trail.

For item 7, I'm going out on a limb (pun intended). Was there any vegetation in the way? Does not take much to slightly deflect a bullet.

But if is none of the above, then you have fallen out of favor with the hunting gods. Make whatever sacrifice they require to get back in their good graces.

 

[JBrew]

Process of elimination.....

#1 Recheck zero.... you got all defensive above when someone else said it but when you listed it as your #2 reason you showed doubt. Rule it and the ammo out. Zero the same as your hunting, if your shooting off a tripod then zero it the same.

If that’s good you either need to settle down or you have a few crippled or dead deer around.

I don’t buy the too much bullet theory......



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/Thread

 

[WCB]

Not a bullet issue...I've shot deer with the 160gr Trophy Bonded Tips, which has a higher expansion velocity than the TLRs, at 50 yards and damage was what was to be expected. Also Wife has shot coyotes with her 7mm08 Trophy Bonded 140gr at 150yards...good quarter size exit (proves expansion).

That bullet is designed to open at lower velocities which means it easily opens at higher ones. No such thing as too much bullet...it is like saying you killed a deer too dead. As someone stated above...a .30 cal hole through vitals or even guts deer are not going to travel 500 yards like nothing happened.