Understanding 3DeFX+ insulation

[Rommy]

Does anyone know how to compare this insulation to other more standard types like primaloft or climashield apex?

For example I know what 100 g/m2 of primaloft or climashield apex means in terms of warmth and loft. But I’m unsure if kuius synthetic insulation is just a 1:1 ratio compared to the other types. The other types are a little more standardized while kuius Toray fabric is kind of their own proprietary blend.

Basically what I’m wondering, is how does 3DeFX+ compare? Like with down, you can compare overall weight of down fill, and with fill power you can compare all down garments easily, and mathematically.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[coyotecreek]

The 3DeFX+ is more of an active insulation, at least with the Kenai line. I have the Kenai plus vest and it is light and thin and keeps me warm when moving, but not so much when sitting and glassing. I have owned a Sitka Kelvin with Primaloft and it is more on par with down for warmth while stationary. I’m sure there are people more knowledgeable than me on here, but this has been my experience. I’m not sure how you would quantify it mathematically.

 

[tdot]

As best as I can tell, Toray allows their product lines to be rebranded by different Big Brands, such as Arcteryx and Patagonia. I believe that the Coreloft from Arcteryx, the insulation in the Nano line from Patagonia and the 3DeFx+ from Toray are all similar, if not identical fabrics.

I've never found a direct comparison to Apex, but I've seen Coreloft described as slightly less insulating compared to Primaloft Gold (at the same weight fabrics).... 60g/m2 to 60g/m2, etc... however it has more insulation compared to the lower Primaloft lines (Silver, etc).

I've had limited experience with Primaloft, but found the garments to be very stiff. I dont know if this was the result of the insulation or the face fabric. The Kenai and Arcteryx jackets are extremely flexible.

Going from my experience with Apex, I would also guess that it is warmer for a given weight of fabric and also less flexible.

 

[willfrye027]

Regardless of the insulation itself I think the face fabric is going to play a huge role in warmth, maybe even more if the insulation loft is similar. A more traditional puffy material will have some more wind resistance and less breath ability and be warmer. Kenai is a softer face fabric, more breathable and quieter but less warm for stationary use.

Kenai by itself is not a terribly warm jacket for the weight. But kenai + softshell is incredibly warm and very versatile for managing core temp and not sweating out like you would in a down jacket. I love my kenai but I also have a down jacket which serves a very different purpose. I think the primaloft pieces are going to be more similar to a standard down jacket. Hope that helps, not a direct answer to your question sorry.

 

[Rommy]

Does kuiu have more than one type of synthetic insulation? Everyone here is using kenai as an example but I was asking my question in reference to their new gale force pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rommy]

I've never found a direct comparison to Apex, but I've seen Coreloft described as slightly less insulating compared to Primaloft Gold (at the same weight fabrics).... 60g/m2 to 60g/m2, etc... however it has more insulation compared to the lower Primaloft lines (Silver, etc).

I've had limited experience with Primaloft, but found the garments to be very stiff. I dont know if this was the result of the insulation or the face fabric. The Kenai and Arcteryx jackets are extremely flexible.

That’s interesting you found that. I have the kelvin lite and it’s very warm and pretty packable and it’s primaloft silver. I heard coreloft isn’t very warm but very breathable. But I may be mixing that up with polartrc alpha.

https://norwaygeographical.com/coreloft-vs-primaloft-insulation/

This article states that primaloft is the warmer and overall better insulator.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wind gypsy]

As best as I can tell, Toray allows their product lines to be rebranded by different Big Brands, such as Arcteryx and Patagonia. I believe that the Coreloft from Arcteryx, the insulation in the Nano line from Patagonia and the 3DeFx+ from Toray are all similar, if not identical fabrics.

I've never found a direct comparison to Apex, but I've seen Coreloft described as slightly less insulating compared to Primaloft Gold (at the same weight fabrics).... 60g/m2 to 60g/m2, etc... however it has more insulation compared to the lower Primaloft lines (Silver, etc).

I've had limited experience with Primaloft, but found the garments to be very stiff. I dont know if this was the result of the insulation or the face fabric. The Kenai and Arcteryx jackets are extremely flexible.

Going from my experience with Apex, I would also guess that it is warmer for a given weight of fabric and also less flexible.

Standard Arc’teryx coreloft is not 3DeFx but Patagucci Fullrange is. Arcteryx has coreloft continuous which is rebranded apex but the standard core loft is more like the traditional primaloft and seems pretty terrible with loft retention.
Edit: the post below is an accurate measure of warmth:weight ratio of the different insulations.

 

[Rommy]

Found this on the web:

Keep in mind full range is Patagonia’s branded name for Toray 3DeFX. And CLO/OZ measures loft per weight i.e. warmth to weight.


‘CLO/oz of "fullrange" is around 0.56, or about the worst synthetic insulation on the market (a few of the thinsulates and a few of the thermolites manage to come in a bit lower). Compare at 0.82 for climashield apex or 0.92 for Primaloft one.

It is called "active insulation" for a reason, and is bested handily by nearly everything for static use (such as sleeping), unless you are planning on keeping an active pace in your quilt it is a complete non-starter. On top of this Toray stuff quite simply isn't available for DIYers.’

Based on those metrics 3DeFX is almost half as warm as the other synthetic insulators.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rommy]

Here’s another quote:


You might want to look at the new Polartec Alpha. It's basically the same concept, but most reviews seem to be believe it to be both warmer and more breathable than the Nano Air. Bear in mind that Alpha -- and most likely the Nano Air's 3DeFX -- is at least half as warm for the weight as Primaloft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tdot]

Standard Arc’teryx coreloft is not 3DeFx but Patagucci Fullrange is. Arcteryx has coreloft continuous which is rebranded apex but the standard core loft is more like the traditional primaloft and seems pretty terrible with loft retention. Standard coreloft is less warm per ounce than primaloft one. Apex is pretty close to primaloft one, and 3DeFx is warmer than all of them.

Interesting.

I know that the older Arcteryx Atom (I think that was the name) used Apex. But my understanding from guys at Arcteryx a few years back was they were going away from Apex. But I didnt hear the final decision and since their takeover by Salomon (or atleast the investment company that also owns Salomon) I dont hear the same info that I used to.

I have two recent pieces from the current Arcteryx Atom line, and short of pulling out a microscope I would say they perform identical to my Kenai.

If it is indeed Apex, then I'd have a hard time saying that Apex and 3DeFx+ are substantially different.

I have an Apex quilt in the lightest weight they sell and it is substantially warmer then my Kenai. Though of course we are comparing a quilt with a different face fabric to a jacket. So a tough comparison.

 

[tdot]

That’s interesting you found that. I have the kelvin lite and it’s very warm and pretty packable and it’s primaloft silver. I heard coreloft isn’t very warm but very breathable. But I may be mixing that up with polartrc alpha.

https://norwaygeographical.com/coreloft-vs-primaloft-insulation/

This article states that primaloft is the warmer and overall better insulator.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The tough part about comparing any of the insulation (ie. Polartec Silver to Coreloft) when sewn into a garment, is that it's easy to state that one is warmer then the other. But more difficult to say that one has better insulation then another. 2" of Polartec Silver will likely insulate better then 1" of any other synthetic, but that isnt necessarily a fair comparison. You need to know the thickness of insulation used, face fabrics and even the cut of a jacket. As all of those factors can make a difference.

 

[tdot]

Does kuiu have more than one type of synthetic insulation? Everyone here is using kenai as an example but I was asking my question in reference to their new gale force pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As far as I'm aware, the Kenai and Gale Force use different weights of the same insulation. Most people are only going to have experience with the Kenai, hence the comparison.

 

[wind gypsy]

Interesting.

I know that the older Arcteryx Atom (I think that was the name) used Apex. But my understanding from guys at Arcteryx a few years back was they were going away from Apex. But I didnt hear the final decision and since their takeover by Salomon (or atleast the investment company that also owns Salomon) I dont hear the same info that I used to.

I have two recent pieces from the current Arcteryx Atom line, and short of pulling out a microscope I would say they perform identical to my Kenai.

If it is indeed Apex, then I'd have a hard time saying that Apex and 3DeFx+ are substantially different.

I have an Apex quilt in the lightest weight they sell and it is substantially warmer then my Kenai. Though of course we are comparing a quilt with a different face fabric to a jacket. So a tough comparison.

Atom FL and AR (the most common models) don’t use apex (or as Arc’teryx brands it, coreloft continuous), they use standard coreloft which is more like primaloft.

 

[fngTony]

Good question to post here, https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/questions-for-kuiu-podcast.156968/

 

[Rommy]

Good question to post here, https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/questions-for-kuiu-podcast.156968/

Ehhh, it seems like everyone touts their own proprietary stuff as the best.

Kuiu says Toray is the best technical fabric on the planet.

FL (I’m a FL guy) says 37.5 cocona is the best.

Sitka doesn’t tout themselves as the best but that’s because they’re owned by goretex which is used by almost every outdoor gear company. Otherwise, I’m sure they would say they have the latest and greatest stuff that has the best warmth to weight ratio on the planet

It’s a broken record from these companies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BouldrerSlayerUpNorth]

Found this on the web:

Keep in mind full range is Patagonia’s branded name for Toray 3DeFX. And CLO/OZ measures loft per weight i.e. warmth to weight.


‘CLO/oz of "fullrange" is around 0.56, or about the worst synthetic insulation on the market (a few of the thinsulates and a few of the thermolites manage to come in a bit lower). Compare at 0.82 for climashield apex or 0.92 for Primaloft one.

It is called "active insulation" for a reason, and is bested handily by nearly everything for static use (such as sleeping), unless you are planning on keeping an active pace in your quilt it is a complete non-starter. On top of this Toray stuff quite simply isn't available for DIYers.’

Based on those metrics 3DeFX is almost half as warm as the other synthetic insulators.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I see on the Toray Website that they quote the 3DeFx insulation as having a clo value of 1.47 for a 60g sample which if you do the math per oz it works out to around 0.70 clo/oz. This is substantially better then the quoted 0.56 clo/oz stated. I agree with you that it is definitely more of an active insulation piece but I think it is much warmer than people think, of course that is not considering the face fabric in front of it which would influence its "real world" warmth.

 

[fngTony]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I see on the Toray Website that they quote the 3DeFx insulation as having a clo value of 1.47 for a 60g sample which if you do the math per oz it works out to around 0.70 clo/oz. This is substantially better then the quoted 0.56 clo/oz stated. I agree with you that it is definitely more of an active insulation piece but I think it is much warmer than people think, of course that is not considering the face fabric in front of it which would influence its "real world" warmth.

At the time of it’s introduction (kuiu video or blog post) Jason claimed it was warmer per ounce than the out going Spindrift jacket. I don’t know what grade of primaloft kuiu used in the spindrift but I think the “primaloft gold” was the warmest (at the time circa 2014-2015) which was debatably equal to 600fill power down.