What if???

[mtntop]

It won't work. All that would happen is the limited resource of older animals would be decimated and you'd never see one. Antler point restrictions only protect the age class below the restriction and force harvest to the older age classes. It effectively lowers age structure since those younger animals that would have been shot now became older animals that did get shot. You have to spread the harvest amongst all age classes and reduce the population evenly. There are tons of studies on it and none end in lots of mature animals.

The idea is predicated on there being enough of those animals to sustain a yearly harvest. There aren't to start with. The only way to improve age structure is to limit harvest entirely. i.e. go limited entry.

Jeremy

Agreed. Practice has been tried in past and doesn't work. CO is a recent example. Eventually all there is is rag horns and horrible genetics. Harvest balance of all age classes seems to give right balance yr to yr.

 

[Wapiti1]

Well sure, one has wolves and the other doesn’t. That’s not surprising.

True. Maybe not perfect examples. The point the I'm making is still valid. Each herd will have a balance for that particular herd based on genetics, habitat, weather and other factors. Or just wait until RMNP also has wolves. No one will remember this thread by then, though.

Jeremy

 

[bsnedeker]

I know this is just a hypothetical, but ranchers here in Montana would lose their minds if people started doing this. From their perspective we have way too many elk in this state. They want folks shooting everything which is one of the main reasons we have Any Elk units in places like central Montana and it's why we have shoulder seasons as well as damage hunts. When it comes to elk specifically the needs and wants of hunters aren't the only thing we have to consider.

I also agree with those that correctly point out that everyone hunts for different reasons. This thread turned me off immediately because antlers are WAY down my list as far as reasons i hunt.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Dos Perros]

True. Maybe not perfect examples. The point the I'm making is still valid. Each herd will have a balance for that particular herd based on genetics, habitat, weather and other factors. Or just wait until RMNP also has wolves. No one will remember this thread by then, though.

Jeremy

Is there no management technique to adjust bull to cow ratios? If there isn’t, one wonders why so many states issue cow tags.

 

[polemtn]

The "quality" of bulls doesn't improve with age, just the antler size.

 

[Wapiti1]

Is there no management technique to adjust bull to cow ratios? If there isn’t, one wonders why so many states issue cow tags.

From the research that I have done, limiting bull tags is the main method to alter the ratio. Cow offtake, if stable year over year, holds the population size hostage, but the herd's natural ratio will be the determining factor.

If that herd has a 4 to 1 cow calf to bull calf tendency, then you'll end up with something that resembles that after other losses (predation, winter, etc). Some herds have more like a 2 to 1 or even 1 to 1 birth rate. I don't know what factors affect the likelihood of a bull calf verses cow calf.

The calf birth ratio and survival are what starts the whole thing.

Jeremy

 

[Dos Perros]

Wow that's wild. I assume this work is in the North American Elk Ecology and Management book? I have it but have only sparingly read.

 

[sndmn11]

Ironically or not, most if not all of Colorado's high point elk units do not have antler point restrictions. I also seem to remember that when Colorado eliminated their deer antler point rule and moved to limited licenses, trophy quality went up. I could be wrong, but it is how I remember it in my youth.

I have thought the idea that Utah had in a few high end deer units with having different types of buck tags is awesome, at least in theory. A fun high quality hunt is still had, but the "lesser" tag just ends up with less inches on the score sheet while being forced to be a management tool.

I think this year I experienced both of the above principles at play in one hunt. My dad drew a fairly covered mule deer tag here in Colorado. Because of circumstances, he was really happy just being out with his family and after the experience. Evening one after a good hard day's work he found a wide 3x3 with a fair sized body and missed his shot. Two more hours of hunting that buck until dark, and three more the next morning resulted in no more shot opportunities. The buck was clearly not hit, and analysis of the video confirmed the same. He was bummed and would have been ecstatic to have connected with his trophy of a 3x3 in a several point unit. Later in day two, he shot a 177" picture perfect buck with one shot and a 29 yard blood trail.

So, had buck one been taken, buck two would have lived. Instead buck one is out there and depending on what you believe possibly breeding future bucks with non-forked backs and no brows. Dead buck two might have peaked in antler size and been shot at the right moment. We also saw a fair amount of people who were happy shooting bucks in between. I do think most folks would take representative animal any day of the week, which leaves the older class to keep growing and become really big. I think there is probably evidence out there showing if you were to institute a 5 point elk rule or 4 point buck rule, you'd see very very few of anything bigger killed, and a lot of cookie cutter animals on the wall.

 

[mtnbiker208]

that would not work for me. Spikes are so tasty.

 

[lyle_destroys]

What if you only have two weeks or less a year to hunt elk and have to make a thousand mile trek to do so? May be a lifetime for a lot of people to kill a single bull by going off of your philosophy. Everything is relative dude, I hunt whitetails every year and have started to limit myself to only does or more mature bucks. But expecting everyone to hold the same standard is ridiculous. What if everyone picked up garbage? What if everyone gave to charity? This is a stupid thread.

 

[Dos Perros]

If: the most irrelevant word in the English language.

 

[trophyhill]

I wouldn’t get my hopes up. Many are not into horn porn and are in it for the meat. Show me the meat!

 

[Titan34]

What if everyone on public land decided to only harvest mature animal? What if it became a kind of unwritten rule. Instead of shooting raghorns or basketball whitetails we harvest a cow or doe?

Been thinking about this for awhile. I believe it would take a couple years, however, I also believe the quality of bulls would increase rapidly. Let the young ones grow up.

This is something I've adopted long ago personally. Implemented it with the guiding I do on public land as well. This was my last year guiding and have some places to hunt that very few go into. The ones that do, have about the same philosophy.

Obviously holding out for a 360 inch bull is ridiculous expectation for masses. What if everyone held out for a bull over 315?

For myself I have a fairly high standard of shoot a cow. Personal choice..

What if?

What if everyone in Michigan didn't shoot yearling bucks. This state might get something going!

 

[Deadfall]

What if everyone in Michigan didn't shoot yearling bucks. This state might get something going!

True.

 

[nphunter]

We already have a lot of mature bulls on the landscape. My personal goal is to not shoot anything less than a 6 point bull. I think it makes me a better hunter because I lose the pressure of making every opportunity count. I approach each encounter more aggressively and assume the bull will not be a shooter. I pass on a lot of shot opportunity’s this way.

I have no desire to shoot a rag horn or spike, my wife and kids also get elk tags so our freezer is full either way. IMO we are in the hay days if elk hunting and most units in every state have good bulls for the taking.

So far I’m liking the 6 point or better rule I’ve set for myself. I have been practicing it for 7 years and have shot 4 6 point bulls in that time and passed up countless smaller bulls. I have several cameras that are in bull summer range that I will have 25+ 6 point bulls on, all in general OTC units.

What I have learned is that elk hunting is hard and takes a lot of dedication year round to be consistently successful. We are currently under attack in OR, a good portion of the hunting community want to get rid of OTC archery hunting and go 100% draw because they think it will be easier for them to kill elk. The fact is the elk are already there for the taking and even if it goes to a draw the same people will be getting the elk. All limiting our opportunity does is make it even harder for the ones who are already out there putting in the work and the ones who want to hit the easy button will still not be punching tags.

2018-2020 none are over 320” but I would be happy to take bulls like this every year for the rest of my life. (That is also a goal I have

 

[Deadfall]

We already have a lot of mature bulls on the landscape. My personal goal is to not shoot anything less than a 6 point bull. I think it makes me a better hunter because I lose the pressure of making every opportunity count. I approach each encounter more aggressively and assume the bull will not be a shooter. I pass on a lot of shot opportunity’s this way.

I have no desire to shoot a rag horn or spike, my wife and kids also get elk tags so our freezer is full either way. IMO we are in the hay days if elk hunting and most units in every state have good bulls for the taking.

So far I’m liking the 6 point or better rule I’ve set for myself. I have been practicing it for 7 years and have shot 4 6 point bulls in that time and passed up countless smaller bulls. I have several cameras that are in bull summer range that I will have 25+ 6 point bulls on, all in general OTC units.

What I have learned is that elk hunting is hard and takes a lot of dedication year round to be consistently successful. We are currently under attack in OR, a good portion of the hunting community want to get rid of OTC archery hunting and go 100% draw because they think it will be easier for them to kill elk. The fact is the elk are already there for the taking and even if it goes to a draw the same people will be getting the elk. All limiting our opportunity does is make it even harder for the ones who are already out there putting in the work and the ones who want to hit the easy button will still not be punching tags.

2018-2020 none are over 320” but I would be happy to take bulls like this every year for the rest of my life. (That is also a goal I have
View attachment 260092

Yes sir. In same boat..very true about the draw thing...folks need to look in mirror here in montana too.

 

[Deadfall]

We already have a lot of mature bulls on the landscape. My personal goal is to not shoot anything less than a 6 point bull. I think it makes me a better hunter because I lose the pressure of making every opportunity count. I approach each encounter more aggressively and assume the bull will not be a shooter. I pass on a lot of shot opportunity’s this way.

I have no desire to shoot a rag horn or spike, my wife and kids also get elk tags so our freezer is full either way. IMO we are in the hay days if elk hunting and most units in every state have good bulls for the taking.

So far I’m liking the 6 point or better rule I’ve set for myself. I have been practicing it for 7 years and have shot 4 6 point bulls in that time and passed up countless smaller bulls. I have several cameras that are in bull summer range that I will have 25+ 6 point bulls on, all in general OTC units.

What I have learned is that elk hunting is hard and takes a lot of dedication year round to be consistently successful. We are currently under attack in OR, a good portion of the hunting community want to get rid of OTC archery hunting and go 100% draw because they think it will be easier for them to kill elk. The fact is the elk are already there for the taking and even if it goes to a draw the same people will be getting the elk. All limiting our opportunity does is make it even harder for the ones who are already out there putting in the work and the ones who want to hit the easy button will still not be punching tags.

2018-2020 none are over 320” but I would be happy to take bulls like this every year for the rest of my life. (That is also a goal I have
View attachment 260092

Nice bulls btw

 

[Michael Rankin]

Not everyone out there is looking for a certain number of inches of horn. Some people are there to hang out with friends in camp and maybe shoot something. Some are there for any meat they can get.
Most are going to shoot the first legal animal they see so there would be no change in harvest unless mandated by law.

If the law was changed that a bull had to have 315 inches of antler to be legal, then that size of a bull would no longer be as much of a trophy . Guys would be complaining about all the hunters shooting first little 315 bull that steps up

 

[Deadfall]

Fair enough

 

[GotDraw?]

Won't work unless mandated by regulations because:

One man's "I'll Pass" is the another man's hail-Mary shot Trophy-

just like one man's batshit crazy ex-girlfriend is another man's wife

and one women's lazy ass, socks on the floor ex is another woman's keeper

JL