What is a "point"

[Gutshot007]

This thread is getting elk hunters thoughts and opinions on "points" for tag drawings. (hopefully not to much of what is "THE" point)
Over the past several years many state game depts have started point systems . They have "preference " , "bonus", "outfitter" and I'm sure others. State game depts do generate substantial amounts of revenue from some of these elaborate systems.
I'm sure hunters look at things differently. Some may send yearly funds $50, $100 ... for the hope of someday drawing a tag and then purchasing it as well. One doesn't think twice about it kinda like a " lottery scratch card". Oh well didn't get it this year maybe next
Maybe the next guy thinks of it as an "investment " . Like building your 401k . He's "building" points.
Is it a "product "? After all you are paying for something. What should one expect in return ? If anything. Does a state have any obligation to the consumer ? Do you think they should ? A million different scenarios.
Some have yearly requirements to pay to stay in the game. With risk of losing your investment if you miss a year.
Should a state increase price at will (out of the realm of inflation )? $100 this year and then $500 the next. A change the rules midgame scenario .

Do states actively "market" points as a product?
Is there an instance where a state should "refund " point money?
I have not personally read the " fine print" on game dept websites. Maybe it's all there.
Has there been any previous legal action on this? Opinions? Thoughts? Or do you care?

 

[elkhuntrr75]

There’s definitely a few states that take advantage of nonresidents. Wyoming in my opinion is the worst. The target is allover the place as they change things. Next year the 10% NR cap will go into effect. I think that I will use my points and drop that state from my plan.


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[greaseywater]

I think of points as part lottery scratcher, part donation to game agency, with the knowledge that any "investment" value in a future tag can be devalued at any time.

I don't think the state has any obligation to me to guarantee a tag. Only to make the rules as plain and clear as possible so I can try my best to follow them.

The only recourse against any slight, real or perceived, is to stop sending them money.

gw

 

[Mykolaivka887]

What is a "point"? A point is what I receive when I don't draw a tag. Plain and simple.

 

[Gutshot007]

Do points level the playing field or is it a money making scheme ? Montana this year for elk the order of success in points is. 1st- 3points ,2nd - 2 points, 3rd -0 points, and 4th- 1 point. Seems different someone with 0 points takes preference over someone with 1 point. Don't call them "preference" points

 

[elkhuntrr75]

What is a "point"? A point is what I receive when I don't draw a tag. Plain and simple.

20 WY sheep points $3000. Your chance on drawing a tag starting next year with 20 pts not good. Refunding that kind of money would devastate the department and be an eye opener for other states.

I am sick of being the nonresident step child. In my state nonresidents can buy a tag for $300 and hunt deer every year. Wyoming residents want to have their cake and eat it too.

Some will say if you don’t like it then don’t apply. I say that if you don’t like it go OUTLAW.


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[Erict]

Do points level the playing field or is it a money making scheme ? Montana this year for elk the order of success in points is. 1st- 3points ,2nd - 2 points, 3rd -0 points, and 4th- 1 point. Seems different someone with 0 points takes preference over someone with 1 point. Don't call them "preference" points

How do you know what the order for Montana is this year when the application period is not even yet closed?

If you don't understand why someone with 0 may have higher odds than those with 1 you need to read "the fine print" that you say you have not read. Pretty important to understand when getting into the "points" game.

 

[Gutshot007]

Yeah I did miss the "fine print" about Montana giving 25%of general elk tags to folks with "zero" points. Can I call them "preference points" ? Having a hard time with this concept. Maybe I'm missing something here, but they say statistically that how it's gonna work out . Seems more like "false advertising " to me

 

[Mykolaivka887]

20 WY sheep points $3000 ..... Refunding that kind of money would devastate the department ...... Some will say if you don’t like it then don’t apply ....

I don't play the points game. I just apply for a tag every year and on those occasions when I don't draw, I receive a point. Pretty simple way of looking at it, actually.

That, and the fact that when looking at drawing a nonresident sheep tag, I figure that I may never draw one of those, but then again, I just might (someday).

But anyway, my way of looking at it is to apply for tags and if I don't draw, I get a point which might (maybe) assist me in drawing in the future.

 

[wytx]

20 WY sheep points $3000. Your chance on drawing a tag starting next year with 20 pts not good. Refunding that kind of money would devastate the department and be an eye opener for other states.

I am sick of being the nonresident step child. In my state nonresidents can buy a tag for $300 and hunt deer every year. Wyoming residents want to have their cake and eat it too.

Some will say if you don’t like it then don’t apply. I say that if you don’t like it go OUTLAW.


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So you promote poaching if you can't draw a licenses ? Glad you let that be known.

 

[Overdrive]

Here's something to think about or research if you don't believe or follow what I'm saying, Colorado actually has 2 different points systems.

For Deer, Elk, Antelope and Bear the PP work like they should, highest points draw the license. Put in, you get a point if you don't draw your first choice, charged minimal money for the point.

Moose, Sheep and Goat you have a PP with weighted point, this draw is actually more random when you look at the draw statistics. This system gives people with lesser PP and WP just as good of a chance as top points holder. Don't believe it, look up the statistics online. And now these PP cost you unless you opt out.

 

[Laramie]

There are only so many ways these questions can be asked. If you really want to challenge it, do the legal research, find your attorney, and start the go fund me.

I do think you are jumping the gun a bit though. We need to see what the State of Wyoming will do. I think some long term point holders may have a case but until we truly know what the new system will be, it impossible to know.

No matter the outcome, the reality still exists that there aren't enough animals to meet the demand. The vast majority of people applying for the big 5 will never get a tag, no matter what the system is.

My hope is they let us roll the points to another species but I'm really doubting that happens.

 

[204guy]

Gutshot, you should spend a whole lot more time reading here GoHunt.com and a whole lot less time posting on Rokslide. There's literally threads on here complaining about how easy this information is to obtain now. You're only 15-30 years too late to start researching the points game.

 

[Laramie]

Gutshot, you should spend a whole lot more time reading here GoHunt.com and a whole lot less time posting on Rokslide. There's literally threads on here complaining about how easy this information is to obtain now. You're only 15-30 years too late to start researching the points game.

I don't disagree with your overall point but your time frame is off. Preference points looked extremely attractive 10 years ago in most states. Go back and look at the draw odds, and number of points required for moose in Wyoming in 2010 and 2011. Basically over the counter cow tags and bull tags drawing for half of max points. It looked like a person could eventually draw. That has obviously changed drastically over the last 10 years. Anyone jumping in the game in the last 5 years for sure wasn't doing their research.

 

[Gutshot007]

Gutshot, you should spend a whole lot more time reading here GoHunt.com and a whole lot less time posting on Rokslide. There's literally threads on here complaining about how easy this information is to obtain now. You're only 15-30 years too late to start researching the points game.

This is more of a "philosophical " question about the current point system's states are currently using. I want to hear real world opinions guys have. Is it sustainable? I go to gohunts website. Not seeking info on "if you want the next world record elk put in for area 76 and you will wait 12.7 years. Your odds are .006543 percent "

 

[Gutshot007]

This is also mainly about ELK. Not necessarily other species.

 

[RCB]

Not sure that getting abstract is useful. A point doesn't have an abstract, general meaning. It means different things in different states, species, etc. Ideally, the rules should be clear and reasonably stable, and the hunters should understand them.

As someone else said, all of the arcane rules around drawing in different states ultimately derive from the simple fact that demand for hunting vastly exceeds supply - at least in some areas. Anyway, I like point systems, broadly speaking, because they provide at least some level of predictability to drawing. Point systems allow me to have a loose multi-year plan; I can have decent confidence that e.g. I can probably get tag x in state y next year if i get one more point, and so on. In a pure lottery system, like NM, your probability of drawing doesn't predictably increase over time. So, with a 33% draw probability, your expected wait time is 3 years. Don't draw in 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? The expected time is still 3 years. It makes it really hard to do multi-state plans.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

Personally, I think the various elk point systems that states use (bonus point, modified bonus point, preference point, weighted preference point) are sustainable, especially since departments and boards and commissions have statutory and regulatory leeway. For certain, random draws (no points system in place) are definitely sustainable, without question.

 

[BuzzH]

20 WY sheep points $3000. Your chance on drawing a tag starting next year with 20 pts not good. Refunding that kind of money would devastate the department and be an eye opener for other states.

I am sick of being the nonresident step child. In my state nonresidents can buy a tag for $300 and hunt deer every year. Wyoming residents want to have their cake and eat it too.

Some will say if you don’t like it then don’t apply. I say that if you don’t like it go OUTLAW.


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Not even close to true in regard to wyoming. If you currently have 20 points many of them were purchased at $7.

As to the rest of your post, you sound like a .

I hope you never draw with that kind of attitude.

 

[sndmn11]

They are sustainable, they have no value and are not an investment, the state has no obligation whatsoever to a point holder, you can call them a tally/try/prior attempt/etc., and they are simply a method for managing excess demand on a finite supply.