What is the best distance to work up a load for open sight muzzleloader?

OP
J

jmclean

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
24
Location
Oregon
This is all great information. It seems like the sight is the biggest limiting factor. I thought maybe an adjustable peep sight might be good for different ranges but I don't think that really works for a hunting application. I like the idea of the PBR shown above. With practice a guy should be good for all practical distances with open sights. I have been trying to find a good peep sight setup for my ultralite but see a lot of different opinions on other threads of this forum.

Sabotloader,

I see it looks like you have the Williams FP Legend peep sight on what looks like maybe an Ultralite in the first picture? Did you have to modify your stock to make that work? I've seen other pictures with I think an NECG peep mounted on a scope base. Do you have an opinion on those? Also, I have been looking for a front sight like you show in the other pictures but having some trouble finding the right one on Williams website. Most of the ones I see are for different applications. Do you have any part numbers you might be able to share for your setup?
 

sabotloader

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
1,114
Location
Northern Idaho
This is all great information. It seems like the sight is the biggest limiting factor. I thought maybe an adjustable peep sight might be good for different ranges but I don't think that really works for a hunting application. I like the idea of the PBR shown above. With practice a guy should be good for all practical distances with open sights. I have been trying to find a good peep sight setup for my ultralite but see a lot of different opinions on other threads of this forum.

Sabotloader,

I see it looks like you have the Williams FP Legend peep sight on what looks like maybe an Ultralite in the first picture? Did you have to modify your stock to make that work?

I did make a very minor modification to the stock with a router. I remover enough stock material to allow the body of the Williams FP to mount on the rifle and sit correctly in the stock.

This is the modification to the stock

Stock-Mod.jpg


Then to allow the windage adjustment to move down and over the side of the stock, I made a physical adjustment to the elevation bar by filing off material on the sight to allow it to move down far enough

This is the modification to the sight I make on the elevation bar. I file the back side of the elevation bar on a taper to clear stock.

El-bar-Mod.jpg


This mod will probably be necessary to allow the bolt handle to clear the bottom of the sight

[
Composite-1.jpg


I've seen other pictures with I think an NECG peep mounted on a scope base. Do you have an opinion on those? Also, I have been looking for a front sight like you show in the other pictures but having some trouble finding the right one on Williams website. Most of the ones I see are for different applications. Do you have any part numbers you might be able to share for your setup?

NECG-Weaver sight drops right on a Weaver Style scope base

NECG.jpg


And yes I do change the front sight

Front-Sight-set-up.jpg


This list might help you on the parts level

Brownells

NECG Peep

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/rear-sights/peep-sight-prod9643.aspx

Warne Bases W826/826B
947-000-166WB
Maxima 2-Piece Base Knight Disc Matte
Mfr Part: M826826M

Front Ramp
962-020-097WB
Streamlined Ramp 3/16" 1.625 Hole Spacing Screw-on
Mfr Part: 1690

Williams front fire Sight
962-564-350WB
Red Fire Sight fits .343N
Mfr Part: 56434

Fire sight Hood
962-000-016WB
Fire Sight Hood
Mfr Part: 70031

Hope this helps - mike
 

Bmac87

Newbie
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
8
This is what I do. I figure it gives me a more realistic idea of what a load is capable of than just guessing if my sight picture and hold was good.
Sabot loader this is off topic but I can't figure out how to message you. Is it possible to shoot bh209 out of my knight with the rpj ignition? Or do I have to switch to the bare 209? In Colorado I currently shoot a 338g power belt platinum with 120g fffg triple 7. I was told by knight that this bullet is too heavy but idk what they mean it seems to shoot well. What are your thoughts? Any experience with powerbelt, federal or hornady 325fxt? I figured the bh209 might give it a little extra punch but I've heard it can cause issues with the plastic jacket system. Is this only with some rifles or when you shoot it too many times without cleaning or what? If you'd like to pm me we could sure save a lot of time and typing if I give you my number or vise versa.Thanks in advance appreciate your knowledge and enjoy reading all of your muzzleloader posts Bryan
 
OP
J

jmclean

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
24
Location
Oregon
Thanks for all the info Mike. Do you think the Williams FP is a better way to go or is the NECG just as good?

Also a little off topic, are there any advantages to the 209 Primer system over a #11 Cap for loose powder applications other than when using BH209?
 

sabotloader

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
1,114
Location
Northern Idaho
Sabot loader this is off topic but I can't figure out how to message you.

Left click on my name/icon and a drop down menu should appear. Then click on 'start a conversation' that will get you to be able to create a message my direction.

Is it possible to shoot bh209 out of my knight with the rpj ignition? Or do I have to switch to the bare 209? In Colorado I currently shoot a 338g power belt platinum with 120g fffg triple 7.

Yes the FPJ (red plastic jacket) system should work with BH 209. I would suggest that you might need to use the Mag style primer to make sure you are consistent with ignition in all temps. You will get a dirty breech as gas escapes back through the plastic jacket.

If you have a FPJ bolt it is really easy to get a Lehigh primer adapter and breech plug and shoot a bare primer.

I was told by knight that this bullet is too heavy but idk what they mean it seems to shoot well. What are your thoughts?

That is a heavy bullet and probably should not be shot with 120gr vol. load of BH - that weight would create a high pressure curve. But I really don't believe it would harm the rifle.

Any experience with powerbelt, federal or hornady 325fxt? I figured the bh209 might give it a little extra punch but I've heard it can cause issues with the plastic jacket system. Is this only with some rifles or when you shoot it too many times without cleaning or what?

That weight bullet with the 120 grain BH powder charge could create a problem with the FPJ. The pressure could possible cause the jacket to rupture.

me we could sure save a lot of time and typing if I give you my number or vise versa.Thanks in advance appreciate your knowledge and enjoy reading all of your muzzleloader posts Bryan

Some how I managed to erase a part of the message - hope I answered most of what you asked.

I will send you a PM

mike
 

sabotloader

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
1,114
Location
Northern Idaho
Thanks for all the info Mike. Do you think the Williams FP is a better way to go or is the NECG just as good?

Honestly... I prefer the adjustability of the FP but the NECG will certainly work!

Also a little off topic, are there any advantages to the 209 Primer system over a #11 Cap for loose powder applications other than when using BH209?

In my mind really there isn't... provided you are shooting a #11 mag cap or better yet a Dynimint Noble 1075+ cap and have a nipple post that will keep the cap from absorbing water.

_11_Composite.jpg


If you apply the cap on the post TIGHT with the right capper, the only way you will get the cap off is to shoot it off or peel it off with the edge of a knife blade.

I have tested loads with both ignitions and there really isn't any significant difference in velocity or accuracy.
 

Bmac87

Newbie
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
8
Left click on my name/icon and a drop down menu should appear. Then click on 'start a conversation' that will get you to be able to create a message my direction.



Yes the FPJ (red plastic jacket) system should work with BH 209. I would suggest that you might need to use the Mag style primer to make sure you are consistent with ignition in all temps. You will get a dirty breech as gas escapes back through the plastic jacket.

If you have a FPJ bolt it is really easy to get a Lehigh primer adapter and breech plug and shoot a bare primer.



That is a heavy bullet and probably should not be shot with 120gr vol. load of BH - that weight would create a high pressure curve. But I really don't believe it would harm the rifle.



That weight bullet with the 120 grain BH powder charge could create a problem with the FPJ. The pressure could possible cause the jacket to rupture.



Some how I managed to erase a part of the message - hope I answered most of what you asked.

I will send you a PM

mike
Thanks sabot loader i appreciate the info. It won't let me send a pm i guess because I haven't commented enough on the site yet. So what I'm getting out of this is if I want a little more punch by using blackhorn i need to convert to the bare 209. Is the Lehigh primer a sufficient way to go rather than the knight conversion kit? Is it still waterproof for the most part if I keep my same bolt i guess is what i mean. Also, do you have any experience shooting magnum loads out of the mountaineer. My other thought was to up my volume of triple 7 to possibly 130 or 140g would there be anu harm in doing so? Maybe lost accuracy. I feel like i can shoot well with the 120g and the 338 and my energy should be sufficient enough to kill an elk out to 250yds. I just figured when I draw a tag in a state that allows scopes I would like to be able to shoot a little further if possible. Maybe the 325 hornady would give me good energy numbers as well? Never shot them but heard good things and the weight seems right. Thanks again, it's nice to talkto someone who knows their stuff. Bryan
 

sabotloader

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
1,114
Location
Northern Idaho
Thanks sabot loader i appreciate the info. It won't let me send a pm i guess because I haven't commented enough on the site yet. So what I'm getting out of this is if I want a little more punch by using blackhorn i need to convert to the bare 209.

Yes with BH and 260 - 75gr bullet or heavier you will slightly more velocity with BH than with T7. With a 300 grain bullet it amounts to and additional 100+ fps at the muzzle.

Is the Lehigh primer a sufficient way to go rather than the knight conversion kit? Is it still waterproof for the most part if I keep my same bolt i guess is what i mean.

With your FPJ bolt the Lehigh adapter and breech plug is the way to go...

Follow this link to the adapter and ULite Breech plug - you might also want to get a pack 4 additional vent liners


Also, do you have any experience shooting magnum loads out of the mountaineer. My other thought was to up my volume of triple 7 to possibly 130 or 140g would there be anu harm in doing so? Maybe lost accuracy.

I really could not advise on going over recommended loads.

I feel like i can shoot well with the 120g and the 338 and my energy should be sufficient enough to kill an elk out to 250yds.

I do not know the BC of the bullet you are shooting, but a 338 driven by 120 grains V of T7 or BH should easily work out to 200+ yards for elk.

During rifle season here in Idaho I use a simple .452x265 Lehigh driven by 120 grs V of BH

Lehigh-452x265-CFHP-R225-6-in.jpg


This is a sheet for a 325 grain bullet shot with T7

50x325-Lehigh-Bloodline.jpg


I just figured when I draw a tag in a state that allows scopes I would like to be able to shoot a little further if possible. Maybe the 325 hornady would give me good energy numbers as well? Never shot them but heard good things and the weight seems right. Thanks again, it's nice to talkto someone who knows their stuff. Bryan


Bryan, I did send you a PM did you get the it?
 

Bmac87

Newbie
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
8
Yes with BH and 260 - 75gr bullet or heavier you will slightly more velocity with BH than with T7. With a 300 grain bullet it amounts to and additional 100+ fps at the muzzle.



With your FPJ bolt the Lehigh adapter and breech plug is the way to go...

Follow this link to the adapter and ULite Breech plug - you might also want to get a pack 4 additional vent liners




I really could not advise on going over recommended loads.



I do not know the BC of the bullet you are shooting, but a 338 driven by 120 grains V of T7 or BH should easily work out to 200+ yards for elk.

During rifle season here in Idaho I use a simple .452x265 Lehigh driven by 120 grs V of BH

Lehigh-452x265-CFHP-R225-6-in.jpg


This is a sheet for a 325 grain bullet shot with T7

50x325-Lehigh-Bloodline.jpg





Bryan, I did send you a PM did you get the it?
Thanks sabot, the bc is .275. with the Lehigh set up what is the pack 4 ventilator for that you spoke of. Also does it not q
 

Bmac87

Newbie
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
8
Yes with BH and 260 - 75gr bullet or heavier you will slightly more velocity with BH than with T7. With a 300 grain bullet it amounts to and additional 100+ fps at the muzzle.



With your FPJ bolt the Lehigh adapter and breech plug is the way to go...

Follow this link to the adapter and ULite Breech plug - you might also want to get a pack 4 additional vent liners




I really could not advise on going over recommended loads.



I do not know the BC of the bullet you are shooting, but a 338 driven by 120 grains V of T7 or BH should easily work out to 200+ yards for elk.

During rifle season here in Idaho I use a simple .452x265 Lehigh driven by 120 grs V of BH

Lehigh-452x265-CFHP-R225-6-in.jpg


This is a sheet for a 325 grain bullet shot with T7

50x325-Lehigh-Bloodline.jpg





Bryan, I did send you a PM did you get the it?
Thanks sabot. I didn't receive the pm. Im assuming it won't let me until I've reached 7 comments or whatever their rule is for the site
Yes with BH and 260 - 75gr bullet or heavier you will slightly more velocity with BH than with T7. With a 300 grain bullet it amounts to and additional 100+ fps at the muzzle.



With your FPJ bolt the Lehigh adapter and breech plug is the way to go...

Follow this link to the adapter and ULite Breech plug - you might also want to get a pack 4 additional vent liners




I really could not advise on going over recommended loads.



I do not know the BC of the bullet you are shooting, but a 338 driven by 120 grains V of T7 or BH should easily work out to 200+ yards for elk.

During rifle season here in Idaho I use a simple .452x265 Lehigh driven by 120 grs V of BH

Lehigh-452x265-CFHP-R225-6-in.jpg


This is a sheet for a 325 grain bullet shot with T7

50x325-Lehigh-Bloodline.jpg





Bryan, I did send you a PM did you get the it?
I don't think it will let me receive the pm cause i haven't hit the required 7 comments or whatever the site requires. With the knight conversion doesn't the bolt close tighter with bare 209 ignition? Does this make a difference waterproof wise if I go the lehigh route. Also what did you mean by the pack 4 extra ventilation? Thanks
 

sabotloader

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
1,114
Location
Northern Idaho
Thanks sabot, the bc is .275. with the Lehigh set up what is the pack 4 ventilator for that you spoke of. Also does it not q

When you order the new breech plug it will come with a vent liner. The pack of 4 are spare parts, and to be honest you probably might use 1 or 2 of them over a long time period.
 
Top