Where to start Wildcat Load? 35 SAUM?

[wildwilderness]

I have been contemplating my first wildcat, a 35 SAUM (300 necked up). For those who know, how do you start load development?

I am planning two loads- a 200 gr TTSX, and a heavy 275 gr Woodleigh PP. based on case capacity it looks to be similar to the 350 Rem Mag, and the 35 Whelen. Can I sort of base it off those loads? How will I find the“best” powder? (I see info on the 35 wsm/Sambar but the case is bigger, but is it close enough?)

Before I “pull the trigger” I want to make sure all will go well. For dies I plan to send fired brass to C4d. Any other suggestions? I have the donor Rem M7 in 300 SAUM...

 

[tdot]

From my limited experience with trying to find new powders for a wildcat, I'd say that the case shape/ powder column shape had as much or maybe more to do with finding representative loads then just the case volume.

The short/fat cases just seem to burn differently then the longer magnum cases. This also seems to be exaggerated with larger calibers for a given case.

The powder I've found for my 338ss more closely relate to a 338 Federal (308win parent) and 338 SAUM, then the 338 WM.

 

[Murtfree]

I worked with many wildcats over the years and I would find some existing cartridges with similar capacity in the same caliber to begin my load development. I would check many loading manuals including PO Ackley’s and compare several cartridges in the range of case capacity, not just one, to get a good feel that I was making an intelligent decision on which powder and what volume. And then back off about 10% as my starting point.....that always seemed to work well for me. But today, we have “Quickload” by Neco. I have recently taken this program and gone over 4 of my old wildcats loads in .17/204, 22 Cheetah, 6mm-06 and the MARS military round and tweaked them a bit. The program did prove that the loads I had worked up were in deed right in the ball park for pressures and velocities, but I did find out that there were better choices in new powders to maximize performance. By measuring actual case capacity in grains of water, load development became a more exact science and left less guess work.

 

[wildwilderness]

I don’t have any experience with Quick load or know any who has. Will have to look into it. Last I heard was a little pricey?

Will look at similar cartridges, including 358 win, and see what P.O. Ackley has.

 

[tdot]

I worked with many wildcats over the years and I would find some existing cartridges with similar capacity in the same caliber to begin my load development. I would check many loading manuals including PO Ackley’s and compare several cartridges in the range of case capacity, not just one, to get a good feel that I was making an intelligent decision on which powder and what volume. And then back off about 10% as my starting point.....that always seemed to work well for me. But today, we have “Quickload” by Neco. I have recently taken this program and gone over 4 of my old wildcats loads in .17/204, 22 Cheetah, 6mm-06 and the MARS military round and tweaked them a bit. The program did prove that the loads I had worked up were in deed right in the ball park for pressures and velocities, but I did find out that there were better choices in new powders to maximize performance. By measuring actual case capacity in grains of water, load development became a more exact science and left less guess work.

Did you have to enter the specifics of the cartridge. Or was all that information available somewhere? Is it difficult?

I've only spoken to people who've used Quickload with standard cartridges and they all were unsure how easy it was to enter a wildcat.

 

[Murtfree]

Did you have to enter the specifics of the cartridge. Or was all that information available somewhere? Is it difficult?

I've only spoken to people who've used Quickload with standard cartridges and they all were unsure how easy it was to enter a wildcat.

In the beginning I did enter my wildcat data from “scratch” but found it not worth the crazy amount of effort. There is always another cartridge of the same caliber that is close in case capacity that can be “tweaked” to arrive at your end goal. It all comes down to case capacity in grains of H20 in relation to cross sectional area of bore or caliber. Case shape and dimensions seem to have little if any effect on the outcome.

In this particular example of 350/300 RemSAUM, using another cartridge as a base for calculations is very easy. H20 capacity of the 300 SAUM is 74grains. The 35/300SAUM would probably have another grain or 2 of capacity after being necked up(I use ”Max case overflow capacity), but for this discussion it’s negligible. If the OP actually creates this cartridge he can then take some fired cases of his brand and get an exact case capacity; I do this with all my wildcats. Quickload shows the 350 Rem Mag having a case capacity of 72 grains of water so actually without an alteration it “APPEARS” that 350 Rem Mag data would be a safe starting point for load data In the 35/30SAUM; your mileage may vary. Just food for thought, there is a 30/350 REM Mag Wildcat listed with 72 grains of H20 capacity just to show how close it is to the 300SAUM at 74. So this example is so close there isn’t any real need for much tweaking with Quickload (especially since 350 Rem Mag has less capacity). But what I would normally do would be to take the 350 Rem Mag data file on Quickload and change the H20 capacity from 72 to 74 grains and the load data generated would correct the powder choices and charges.

So I actually ran some data but won’t give the actual powder charge weights for safety sake. I ran the 350 Rem Mag (72 gr H20 Capacity) with a 200gr TTSX and one of the top powder choices (but not “the” top) was H335. With a 22 inch barrel and 60KPSI for max pressure, velocity was listed as 2771FPS. When case capacity was changed to 74 grains, H335 moved up to the top choice for powder with a 1.3 grain increase in charge. Velocity increased to 2793FPS; almost negligible. I have worked this scenario with many other wild cats and it has worked almost perfectly. I always start 10% below the numbers given and use common sense and knowledge I’ve learned in over 45 years of reloading to watch for pressure signs. What Quickload has done for me in attaining wildcat data has saved me lots of time and $$$. When I recently started on my loads for a few new 280 AI’s I went to Quickload (one of their listed cartridges) and found that RE26 should be the best bang for the buck for my bullet applications. And after a few trips to the range it proved to me that I needed to look no further. Normally I would check several manuals and choose 2 or 3 powders to work with and then use chronograph data and accuracy testing. Many times the data from the manuals left a lot to be desired because they were using a test rifle; Quickload allows me to tweak the data for my specific barrel length and case capacity. My max loads for the 280AI’s did end up about 2 grains below Quickload calculated max and this is why I say to start 10% below just to err on the side of safety.

If I remember correctly, when I reworked my 6mm-06 data I used the 240 Weatherby file and changed the H20 capacity to my actual case capacity in water of my Federal cases fired in my 6mm-06 rifle ......they were within a few grains of each other. If any one thinks I‘m over reaching here, take into account that it is not uncommon to find a 5 grain difference in H20 capacity between different manufacturers of cases for the same cartridge. I am not condoning anyone to use my methodology stated here since I have no control over your reloading habits.....it has worked great for me, use common sense and be safe.

 

[tdot]

In the beginning I did enter my wildcat data from “scratch” but found it not worth the crazy amount of effort. There is always another cartridge of the same caliber that is close in case capacity that can be “tweaked” to arrive at your end goal. It all comes down to case capacity in grains of H20 in relation to cross sectional area of bore or caliber. Case shape and dimensions seem to have little if any effect on the outcome.

In this particular example of 350/300 RemSAUM, using another cartridge as a base for calculations is very easy. H20 capacity of the 300 SAUM is 74grains. The 35/300SAUM would probably have another grain or 2 of capacity after being necked up(I use ”Max case overflow capacity), but for this discussion it’s negligible. If the OP actually creates this cartridge he can then take some fired cases of his brand and get an exact case capacity; I do this with all my wildcats. Quickload shows the 350 Rem Mag having a case capacity of 72 grains of water so actually without an alteration it “APPEARS” that 350 Rem Mag data would be a safe starting point for load data In the 35/30SAUM; your mileage may vary. Just food for thought, there is a 30/350 REM Mag Wildcat listed with 72 grains of H20 capacity just to show how close it is to the 300SAUM at 74. So this example is so close there isn’t any real need for much tweaking with Quickload (especially since 350 Rem Mag has less capacity). But what I would normally do would be to take the 350 Rem Mag data file on Quickload and change the H20 capacity from 72 to 74 grains and the load data generated would correct the powder choices and charges.

So I actually ran some data but won’t give the actual powder charge weights for safety sake. I ran the 350 Rem Mag (72 gr H20 Capacity) with a 200gr TTSX and one of the top powder choices (but not “the” top) was H335. With a 22 inch barrel and 60KPSI for max pressure, velocity was listed as 2771FPS. When case capacity was changed to 74 grains, H335 moved up to the top choice for powder with a 1.3 grain increase in charge. Velocity increased to 2793FPS; almost negligible. I have worked this scenario with many other wild cats and it has worked almost perfectly. I always start 10% below the numbers given and use common sense and knowledge I’ve learned in over 45 years of reloading to watch for pressure signs. What Quickload has done for me in attaining wildcat data has saved me lots of time and $$$. When I recently started on my loads for a few new 280 AI’s I went to Quickload (one of their listed cartridges) and found that RE26 should be the best bang for the buck for my bullet applications. And after a few trips to the range it proved to me that I needed to look no further. Normally I would check several manuals and choose 2 or 3 powders to work with and then use chronograph data and accuracy testing. Many times the data from the manuals left a lot to be desired because they were using a test rifle; Quickload allows me to tweak the data for my specific barrel length and case capacity. My max loads for the 280AI’s did end up about 2 grains below Quickload calculated max and this is why I say to start 10% below just to err on the side of safety.

If I remember correctly, when I reworked my 6mm-06 data I used the 240 Weatherby file and changed the H20 capacity to my actual case capacity in water of my Federal cases fired in my 6mm-06 rifle ......they were within a few grains of each other. If any one thinks I‘m over reaching here, take into account that it is not uncommon to find a 5 grain difference in H20 capacity between different manufacturers of cases for the same cartridge. I am not condoning anyone to use my methodology stated here since I have no control over your reloading habits.....it has worked great for me, use common sense and be safe.

Awesome. Thanks for the very thorough explanation. Its definitely something that I need to look into more. I probably would've saved the purchased price in spent components playing around with different loads... though I do find that half the fun.

 

[wildwilderness]

In the beginning I did enter my wildcat data from “scratch” but found it not worth the crazy amount of effort. There is always another cartridge of the same caliber that is close in case capacity that can be “tweaked” to arrive at your end goal. It all comes down to case capacity in grains of H20 in relation to cross sectional area of bore or caliber. Case shape and dimensions seem to have little if any effect on the outcome.

In this particular example of 350/300 RemSAUM, using another cartridge as a base for calculations is very easy. H20 capacity of the 300 SAUM is 74grains. The 35/300SAUM would probably have another grain or 2 of capacity after being necked up(I use ”Max case overflow capacity), but for this discussion it’s negligible. If the OP actually creates this cartridge he can then take some fired cases of his brand and get an exact case capacity; I do this with all my wildcats. Quickload shows the 350 Rem Mag having a case capacity of 72 grains of water so actually without an alteration it “APPEARS” that 350 Rem Mag data would be a safe starting point for load data In the 35/30SAUM; your mileage may vary. Just food for thought, there is a 30/350 REM Mag Wildcat listed with 72 grains of H20 capacity just to show how close it is to the 300SAUM at 74. So this example is so close there isn’t any real need for much tweaking with Quickload (especially since 350 Rem Mag has less capacity). But what I would normally do would be to take the 350 Rem Mag data file on Quickload and change the H20 capacity from 72 to 74 grains and the load data generated would correct the powder choices and charges.

So I actually ran some data but won’t give the actual powder charge weights for safety sake. I ran the 350 Rem Mag (72 gr H20 Capacity) with a 200gr TTSX and one of the top powder choices (but not “the” top) was H335. With a 22 inch barrel and 60KPSI for max pressure, velocity was listed as 2771FPS. When case capacity was changed to 74 grains, H335 moved up to the top choice for powder with a 1.3 grain increase in charge. Velocity increased to 2793FPS; almost negligible. I have worked this scenario with many other wild cats and it has worked almost perfectly. I always start 10% below the numbers given and use common sense and knowledge I’ve learned in over 45 years of reloading to watch for pressure signs. What Quickload has done for me in attaining wildcat data has saved me lots of time and $$$. When I recently started on my loads for a few new 280 AI’s I went to Quickload (one of their listed cartridges) and found that RE26 should be the best bang for the buck for my bullet applications. And after a few trips to the range it proved to me that I needed to look no further. Normally I would check several manuals and choose 2 or 3 powders to work with and then use chronograph data and accuracy testing. Many times the data from the manuals left a lot to be desired because they were using a test rifle; Quickload allows me to tweak the data for my specific barrel length and case capacity. My max loads for the 280AI’s did end up about 2 grains below Quickload calculated max and this is why I say to start 10% below just to err on the side of safety.

If I remember correctly, when I reworked my 6mm-06 data I used the 240 Weatherby file and changed the H20 capacity to my actual case capacity in water of my Federal cases fired in my 6mm-06 rifle ......they were within a few grains of each other. If any one thinks I‘m over reaching here, take into account that it is not uncommon to find a 5 grain difference in H20 capacity between different manufacturers of cases for the same cartridge. I am not condoning anyone to use my methodology stated here since I have no control over your reloading habits.....it has worked great for me, use common sense and be safe.

Another question- how often is Quickload updated with new powders? Also do you have to pay for the updates?

thanks

 

[Murtfree]

Another question- how often is Quickload updated with new powders? Also do you have to pay for the updates?

thanks

That isn’t something I can answer and have wondered myself. One of the younger more computer savvy guys may be able to answer that question. I believe their site says that updates can be downloaded. I own my copy of Quickload for about 2 years and I think the newest manual I was using before that was about 10 years old so I haven’t been too concerned about it yet. My version of Quickload has all the powders listed that I use. Someday I may check into the downloads and if I can’t figure it out I may just buy a later version on disc. I think I paid about $150 for mine which has paid for itself many times over in just 2 years in bullets, powder and time.

 

[wildwilderness]

So I ran into a potential snag. I called CH 4D about a new custom die for the 35 SAUM. I was told it would take 24 months for it to be made!

Any other options for a custom die? Who else makes them?

 

[Murtfree]

So I ran into a potential snag. I called CH 4D about a new custom die for the 35 SAUM. I was told it would take 24 months for it to be made!

Any other options for a custom die? Who else makes them?

I ran into this problem several years ago and found out non SAAMI cartridges are tough to get made. Whidden made me a set after a lot of arm twisting for my MARS but I found out after a while creating my own cartridge was seldom worth the effort. Does anyone make a 35 Rem Mag AI......that should be close to what you are trying to accomplish

 

[tdot]

So I ran into a potential snag. I called CH 4D about a new custom die for the 35 SAUM. I was told it would take 24 months for it to be made!

Any other options for a custom die? Who else makes them?

I vaguely recall reading that either Hornady or Redding will customize a die for you. Otherwise if this case is only a change in the neck diameter, but the shoulder and case body are the same as a 300Saum. Then maybe contacting someone who makes a bushing die for the 300Saum, such as LE Wilson and asking if they'll change the neck before hardening the die. It should be a fairly straight forward operation for them, since the bushing does the final neck sizing. Heck, you might even get away with running an appropriate 35cal bushing in a 300saum bushing die.

 

[Murtfree]

I vaguely recall reading that either Hornady or Redding will customize a die for you. Otherwise if this case is only a change in the neck diameter, but the shoulder and case body are the same as a 300Saum. Then maybe contacting someone who makes a bushing die for the 300Saum, such as LE Wilson and asking if they'll change the neck before hardening the die. It should be a fairly straight forward operation for them, since the bushing does the final neck sizing. Heck, you might even get away with running an appropriate 35cal bushing in a 300saum bushing die.

That is a very good point. It certainly works if you are necking down, but not sure if it works when necking up; may create a problem with the shoulder but not sure. You may have to expand the necks first with something like a K&M mandrel expander. My 17/204 dies are just a set of Redding 204 Ruger bushing dies and my 6mm-06 dies are a set of Redding 25-06 bushing dies.

 

[wildwilderness]

I vaguely recall reading that either Hornady or Redding will customize a die for you. Otherwise if this case is only a change in the neck diameter, but the shoulder and case body are the same as a 300Saum. Then maybe contacting someone who makes a bushing die for the 300Saum, such as LE Wilson and asking if they'll change the neck before hardening the die. It should be a fairly straight forward operation for them, since the bushing does the final neck sizing. Heck, you might even get away with running an appropriate 35cal bushing in a 300saum bushing die.

I have looked at bushings but didn’t find one that goes up to 35cal. They stop at 338 since comps generally don’t use bigger. I would put a 35 cal expander in the die to open it up. However bushing dies are super pricey.

The gunsmith said that another die with same shoulder can be used for neck sizing so a 35 newton die can be shorted to neck size, or. 35-300 wsm if it is more available.

 

[wildwilderness]

Redding customs are closed, said they would be over 12 months backlogged when they do open. Custom dies are $350ish

I did get a hold of Whidden and they said they can make a custom die. Will take about 10-14 weeks and cost about $299. Looks like that’s my option for now.

I’m seeing why wildcats aren’t so popular to make anymore. Maybe not worth the effort n the long run

 

[Murtfree]

Redding customs are closed, said they would be over 12 months backlogged when they do open. Custom dies are $350ish

I did get a hold of Whidden and they said they can make a custom die. Will take about 10-14 weeks and cost about $299. Looks like that’s my option for now.

I’m seeing why wildcats aren’t so popular to make anymore. Maybe not worth the effort n the long run

Whidden did a nice job for me with my MARS set of dies. They had to make several dies to incrementally reshape brass to get to the final product.

 

[Spoonbill]

Redding customs are closed, said they would be over 12 months backlogged when they do open. Custom dies are $350ish

I did get a hold of Whidden and they said they can make a custom die. Will take about 10-14 weeks and cost about $299. Looks like that’s my option for now.

I’m seeing why wildcats aren’t so popular to make anymore. Maybe not worth the effort n the long run

If you aren’t married to the saum case, you could do a 35-300wsm, also known as the 358? Sambar. One of the bigger named gun writers came up with it so dies may be available. Good luck with whatever you end up doing, I built a 35 whelen last year and it is awesome.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Subscribed. I'd be interested in a 35 or 338 SAUM.