Why do so many shops do this?

Beendare

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We see it time after time on every archery site.......inexperienced guys chiming in with these noodle-ly underspined arrows....and then- no surprise- they can't get their BH's to group.

What is up with these shops setting these guys up like that? Are they just trying to milk every FPS out of the bow?

All of the experienced guys I know run a shaft thats over spined......or at least if they are close to the edge on a spine size, they go up a size.

I've been running a full spine size over for about 25 years in many bows....and they tune with BH's easily.

HEY SHOPS; All of these modern compounds have shoot through risers that perform well with a stiffer arrow.......if the customer wants to hunt vs straight target shooting....set them up right.

______
 
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Because when a customer goes home and looks up the spine chart it says they should be here....


A lot of those charts are built off of what is safe. Not what is best for hunting. At least Easton runs different charts for target/field archery versus hunting. But in my experience still too weak for a lot of broadheads.
 

bwlacy

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Most of the shops around here don't know any better. Some kid who thinks it's cool to work at a shop making $10/hour selling things he has no understanding of.

There might be 1 shop on my side of the state that I'd take my bow to, or listen to most anything they have to say.

There just isn't any good shops around here.
 

5MilesBack

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I'll take the counter point. In most of these cases that I see, these guys should have no problem getting those arrows to tune with the weight they're shooting and their draw length. But in some cases as we've seen, guys are shooting arrows 3-4" too long. Shorten the arrows up and they'll shoot fine. Ya, if they want really long arrows and 300gr BH's on the front then ya.......they'll need a stiffer arrow. But most guys can easily shoot 340's and should be able to get them to tune.

As recently as 7-8 years ago my local shop owner used to sell me all his 300's at cost because he couldn't get rid of them. And he couldn't get rid of them because nobody was shooting 300's or stiffer in a hunting arrow. That wasn't that long ago. Then all of a sudden 250's and 200's made their way onto the scene and everybody it seems wants to shoot those.
 
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Huntin wv

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Most shops around here set people up for standard inserts and 100 grain broadheads, which puts total arrow weight in the 350-400 gr range. If you use anything heavier you’re probably going to be too weak. They have a few 340 spine arrows, but 300 and 250’s usually have to be ordered.


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Beendare

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I don't mean to criticize shops...there are some good ones for sure.

And they are in a pickle with these new shooters that can't do a dang thing for themselves. Shops really should be able to charge by the hour for advice after the sale -time is money right?- but I've seen a lot of new shooters think that since they bought their bow at XX shop- they should get a lifetime of tuning for free.

______
 
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I sold my reign 6 to a friend with 2 doz axis 300’s with 50 grain inserts and 125 heads, it was set at 29.5 71 lbs and he went to a shop for whatever reason and they had him convinced they were the wrong arrows and they wouldn’t work, they said the 340’s were on the stiff side and recommend 400’s. He kept saying but the guy at the bow shop said.... finally I convinced him to walk out and shoot the arrows I gave him. First bow I bought was an insanity 70 lb and the guy made me a dozen un cut 400 axis, I had no clue.
 

Shawn_Guinn

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I went to my local shop last year looking for 250 or 260 spine arrows. None in stock but he tried to convince me to go 340's. I'm a 30 inch draw shooting 72 lbs. I know what I want in a build, just trying to support the local shop. But sometimes it's hard. PS I would have been happy to wait for an order but was so grossed out with the sales pitch and I know more than you attitude.

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I had mixed success at my shop. I was the guy buying from the internet several years ago. I went into the shop and paid for tuning and setup. They adjusted my draw length (which was wrong), set me up with underspined arrows, installed my peep backwards, and never leveled my third axis on the sight.

To their credit, they helped me get a defective bow replaced by the manufacturer. Although, they charged me for the labor to rebuild the bow a couple of times, and consequently setup the replacement bow.

I’ve learned SOOOO much since I first went in there several years ago. 1) I never go there because I don’t trust their work. 2) I go to a VERY competent bow technician when I need to in stead. 3) My bow tech has taught me a lot, and I’ll have my home shop (bow press, vise, draw board, bale, paper tuning stand, etc.) setup (probably by next weekend) to work on my own bows, plus a few friends. All I’ll lack are a chronograph, spine checker, and hooter shooter.

I’m over wasting good, hard-earned money at my local bow shop. I’m intelligent and resourceful enough to learn tuning, if by no other means, by trial and error. Not to mention, their money-driven opinions are overpriced too. I can get all the opinion I need on the internet.


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SDHNTR

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Because most arrow charts are still woefully outdated.
 
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SquirrelyDan

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I dont think the guys at the shop know any better to be honest. I think most of them just go off what the chart says. There are other variables than what the chart lists. The shop guys dont have the experience to know the difference. Archers advantage is fantastic tool btw. I dont go to bow shops anymore, I order everything myself and do it at home.
 

Elkhntr08

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Guy comes in, drops $1200 on a new bow. Add in everything else and he ends up getting 6 arrows. Say 340 with 100 grain points. Bow tunes pretty good, guy leaves the shop.
Guy starts reading about 125 heads and heavier FOC and starts chasing that dragon down the rabbit hole.
Buys some 125 heads, weighted inserts and poof, bow is out of tune! Broadheads won’t group, shop is stupid and bow ends up on eBay. Used to see it all the time. Work you butt off to get a guys bow to shoot. Back in on Tuesday cause the POS won’t shoot. Find out that some knuckle head on the 3D Sunday told him to tweak this or change that. I did start charging for follow up tuning.
Took me a few years to find my setup. Bow is 29 1/4” @ 66#, FMJ 340 27 1/2”, standard insert, 3 Blazers and 100 grain COC head. Weighs in at 495 with a FOC around 9%. Don’t know how fast it is, don’t care. It tunes great, it groups with FPs out to 80 yards and puts game on the ground quick. And yes, I still own 2 chronographs.
Sorry for the long rant, just tired of the heavy FOC micro diameter arrow crap.
 

Reburn

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Guy comes in, drops $1200 on a new bow. Add in everything else and he ends up getting 6 arrows. Say 340 with 100 grain points. Bow tunes pretty good, guy leaves the shop.
Guy starts reading about 125 heads and heavier FOC and starts chasing that dragon down the rabbit hole.
Buys some 125 heads, weighted inserts and poof, bow is out of tune! Broadheads won’t group, shop is stupid and bow ends up on eBay. Used to see it all the time. Work you butt off to get a guys bow to shoot. Back in on Tuesday cause the POS won’t shoot. Find out that some knuckle head on the 3D Sunday told him to tweak this or change that. I did start charging for follow up tuning.
Took me a few years to find my setup. Bow is 29 1/4” @ 66#, FMJ 340 27 1/2”, standard insert, 3 Blazers and 100 grain COC head. Weighs in at 495 with a FOC around 9%. Don’t know how fast it is, don’t care. It tunes great, it groups with FPs out to 80 yards and puts game on the ground quick. And yes, I still own 2 chronographs.
Sorry for the long rant, just tired of the heavy FOC micro diameter arrow crap.

I will share my experience.
guy come in, drops 1200 on a new bow. And 1200 on everything else including a dozen arrows. He tells the shop exactly what head he plans on running for broadheads which is iron will wides 100 grains. 31" draw, 65 lbs. Shop tried to tell him he needs 340 arrows. Since he had already done the ontarget2 calculations he protests and say he needs 300's. Shop argues and pulls out gold tip's chart and said he needs 340's. They concede to spin up 300's. They cut them 2" past the riser which still makes them slightly underspined. Guy buys his own stuff, bow press, vise, tools, levels, arrows saws, ect. Fixes the bow that left out of the shop out of spec and out of poundage. Tunes his own bow and ends up tuning his brothers bows and all is good in the world. Those charts are good as a starting off point to start mock building your setup in a calculator. Its impossible for those charts to consider every bow and all the supposed IBO speeds.

Moral of the story. There are good pro shops and good gunsmiths out there. If you find one support them. But there is usually no one that will set it up the way you like it. Beat the curve and just learn to do it yourself, you will be happier in the end.

Yes I still support that shop. They are a pretty good shop. They cater to the majority of the customers that just want minute of deer at 45 yards. I can't begrudge them for honestly admiting that they can't take the time to setup an accurate 80 yard bow with the time they have alloted to spend on each bow vs the money charged. They usually have a minimum of 50 bows in the que waiting for work. The owner and I have since become friends. Now if I get a new bow I just tell them to skip the setup I'll do it myself.
 

Elkhntr08

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Reburn, I agree that your best defense against a shoddy shop is education. That and some common sense.
I closed my shop in ‘98 after 15 years. Have walked out of more shops because they try to tell me what I need rather than sell me what I want.
Had a young man ask me what BH I was shooting, told him I used a 100 grain 3 blade Muzzy at the time. He proceeded to tell me that I needed to shoot Rage cause you can’t kill anything with a Muzzy. I had just got back from RSA where I took everything with a Muzzy. I asked him not to tell the African animals, 100+ deer, bears and other critters that I’ve taken, that a Muzzy won’t work.
Educate yourself.
I’ll shut up.
 

FlyGuy

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I don’t know much about the science on this stuff and almost 100% rely on local shops, but unfortunately I live in the Houston, TX area... which means every hunting bow sold in these parts is set up to shoot a whitetail on a corn feeder at 20 yards. Really light arrows w/ 100gr heads for max speed... They really don’t seem to know what to do with my set up.

Is there a good calculator out there to use with heavy Point weight?

I am shooting 230gr Valkyrie BH with 22gr centerpin sleeve. Total weight is 501gr. Using a 300 spine and Arrows are cut to 28”. 28” draw, 70# draw weight, original Mathews Halon w/ 6” riser. 269fps.

When I first ordered these arrows a couple years ago I was only pulling ~ 62lbs. After a couple years of Crossfit I was able to increase to 70# draw weight but a recent shoulder injury on my bow arm forced me to drop down to ~ 55# draw weight back in March. I Started shooting 5 backyard arrows a day during pandemic (it was all the shoulder would handle). As the shoulder improves I’ve started gradually increasing the poundage by a 1/4 - 1/2 turn every few days.

I added a half turn yesterday that should put me around 66-68#, and i thought the arrow flight looked different? I only shot 5 arrows and it’s only at about 12 yards; and I was in a big hurry to shoot and get out the door so maybe it’s nothing. I’ll definitely pay close attention to arrow flight today, but I’m starting to wonder if I’m getting underspined at a full 70#? Online Charts say 300 for my set up, but they are only using 100-150gr point weight and I’m way above that.

Wondering what you guys think that know way more about this than I?

Also, what exactly does good and bad arrow flight look like? It just seemed like I could see the arrow flexing coming off the bow at that weight, and I never noticed any flex at the lower poundage. Maybe that’s ok?

Thanks in advance!





You can’t cheat the mountain
 

Reburn

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money well spent and a good place to start.


You didn't list what shaft so I just modified the GPI weight based on what you said your total arrow weight was. This is only a general look as I don't know all your componets and weights. Looks like you slightly underspined with that much weight up front. FOC at 21% is pretty high too.

Screenshot (87).png
 

big44a4

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Most shops around here set people up for standard inserts and 100 grain broadheads, which puts total arrow weight in the 350-400 gr range. If you use anything heavier you’re probably going to be too weak. They have a few 340 spine arrows, but 300 and 250’s usually have to be ordered.


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This is what I’ve seen in my neck of the woods. Walked in to a shop 5 years ago wanting to build an arrow close to 500gr and they did not have anything in stock to get me there. Maybe that shop is more versed on all arrows now but in south Texas it’s about white tails and speed as another post mentioned. That shop back then only carried 350 spine as the stiffest. Anything else had to be ordered.

I now have been going to a different shop for 4 years that carries everything from 200-500 spine. Can build you anything you want and has several brands to chose from. Also carries as many bow brands so does not push one thing in particular but let’s you shoot try and shoot what you want. Same for broadheads as they even carry some higher end brands.


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solomtnhunter

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Jun 20, 2020
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WA
Most "shops" around where i live are just box stores with an archery counter and some kid who kinda knows how to shoot a bow... while getting paid just enough to keep him living with his parents. Not to mention you got these average joe youtubers who portray themselves as experts. The nearest what i would consider actual pro shop is 1.5 drive and are owner operator.
 
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